I think you put together a very well written thread .. I just think you're exaggerating and simplifying the head case argument .. it was not every time , in over sixty fights it was very few and I personally feel it was all mental .. against Vito he was concerned about stamina and it showed .. against Duran it was his first superfight and it showed .. the fight was not that close , the moment was more dramatic as Duran survived .. Hagler was never seriously challenged if you watch the fight with the volume down .. then the Leonard fight which was the definition of a classic psyche job.. Hagler's biggest weakness was mental. It's why dispite all his superior skill I hesitate to pick him over Monzon who was the ultimate confident fighter ..
You both make good points. Maybe Marvin's weakness was that he changed styles with different fighters often in relation to how they fought him or how they were in the prefight. Like with Ray, who really fooled Marvin to not be as aggressive. But really that was not Marvin's fight. Hearns would always test the guys chin no matter who he was in against, but Marvin could be a little cautious and wait which hurt him in some fights. With Duran he was cautious as he was with Ray a little coming in orthodox and giving away the first two rounds. With Hearns he fought a different fight and I think that challenge was great for him because it brought out the warrior Marvin. I think the greater the challenge the best he would have done because he would have had no choice. I think had Duran come out aggressive Marvin would have turned it up and taken care of him quickly. He had a way of mimicking his opponent, which leads me to think someone coming out relaxed and controlling the action with the jab would be something bad for Marvin. But getting into a war with him woke him up.
Basically Marvin was frightened of Duran, then Leonard and chose to stay close to the harbor for fear of being brought into deep waters and drowned. He lacked that extra special thing that seperated the greats from the very good. Self-assurance and confidence.
I think the Hearns fight demonstrated Marvin's greatness. That is the fight which made him great. Frightened of Duran? He was cautious. If he was frightened of people he was not in the right occupation, and how he fought Hearns and Mugabi was not fear, I don't think he was fearful. I think the thumbing incident with Moore was on his mind. He beat Duran. So he beat two greats Duran and Hearns. lost to Ray in a fight he really shouldn't have, but he was inactive also.
The thread is full of excuses.Even Marvin lists Duran as his best opponent.Both were in shape and determined.
To be honest I've never seen any Monzon comments regarding Hagler except for this one. For sure the pick of Duran was a bit suss but in saying Hagler didn't do what he should have Monzon was not proffering the opinion Hagler lost or anything. The theme of the night was why was Hagler so unimpressive. I'm certainly not in the camp that think it was a super close fight. Not a bit. I do think Hagler could have really put Duran under pressure in there by forcing a quicker pace. This doesn't mean just wading in. Duran was fighting more with an eye on the distance than in winning imo. Sure he kept looking for those right hands but in reality he was getting outworked as you would fully agree, having Hagler a comfortable winner.
I always thought it was a matter of people thinking a LW moving up to MW that is Hagler=drubbing. The fact that it went the distance was shocking in itself. And they didn't have internet. How bad would Hagler get drug through the blogger's mud had that fight happened this past weekend? A MW fighting all these little dudes moving up? & he can't stop Leonard? Can't stop Duran? Problem is some guys are true definition of the term P4P- meaning no matter what weight a Real Deal Pound 4 Pound MOFO will rise to the occasion. AKA Duran. No matter what style Hagler would've employed- he didn't have Hearns KO power, so Duran aint no cakewalk. He's a real deal P4P madman. Skills & Crazy to match!
I didn't say he thumbed him. I said he was preoccupied with being thumbed and in his mind the swelling over his eye was caused by a thumb.. Goody was worried about thumbings and low blows so that is from Goody Petronelli himself. And Hagler is the one who said that the swelling over his right eye came from a thumb. But I don't know if it did. Hagler wouldn't want to admit it came from punches. Duran himself said the better man won didn't he? Saying Hagler was ordinary, the only thing he had was he was strong. Ignoring his 75 inch reach or southpaw/orthodox switch. Hagler to me edged most of the rounds. I don't see how it was close, but SI and other people wanted Duran to win and he was the sentimental guy in there so that always helps on the cards. Some would say Ray was helped on the cards in 1987 against Hagler.
Moore was a 12 fight novice who took the title off a fifteen fight champion Hagler had 61 fights under his belt and was tried and tested in the fire , different animal. When Moore got thumbed he fell apart, when Hagler got badly cut against Hearns he upped the ante to all out war.
Moore was a World Class fighter. Duran tore his ass from the frame. Why (you believe) it happened or excuses don't change it. If Moore "werenot of any class?" Why was he favored?
That was part of it but make no mistake Davey Moore was a highly regarded young champion. He had the talent and the tools to back it up. He lacked experiance but he certainly was a class fighter. 5 time New York Golden Gloves
