Can I see your MW list? Top 10, 15, 20, whatever?

Look. You have a lot of opinions about Abraham that I disagree with. Quite frankly, I don't think I can advance the case against your held opinions any further than I have done already.

The facts are that Abraham didn't face a lot of the top-end, Ring-Rated contenders at 160, who were around at the same time as him.

When the opportunity for him to step up at 168 did arrive and was taken, Abraham was grossly exposed.

Even then, he failed to face a good number of the other Ring-Rated contenders at 168.

I think these are significant facts, when rating a fighter for an ATG listing.

There's no more I can add. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

An admirable and, if I may say so ,given the invariable and inflexible tone of this person, a very restrained post !

 

I occasionally have my moments of self-restraint.

 

No I don't see much power. I see a medium speed handed middle with good accuracy who using his legs and landing on much shorter men, some of whom were past their prime. Monzon was an attrition based TKO type of guy, a grinder.

That's because it true! Do you really want to go over the short height and working contains of his best opponents, because you'll be smacked with reality that it's true.

GGG Was PAST HIS PRIME when he was robbed vs. Canelo. And most of know he was robbed. Monzon wisely retired before he hit the other side of the hill. If you can't see that, you need help. I'd love to see Monzon fighting Canelo with those judges at 36, he's losing.

He did nothing extradorinaiy and I'm still waiting for you to define how he did everything well.

BS! I do not have GGG #1. You see you don't even understand the context of what I am saying or my positions. DUH.

Blah blah Blah, GGG had too many amateur fights. The competition by the way in Argentina was pretty poor.

Once again he was past his prime by then. No one stops Canelo for now. He takes a good punch, and has good defense. If you want to compare GGG or to Monzon or any of his shorter more famous opponents I'll have a field day on you.

I asked which Valdes fights you have seen. Okay, on one side you say Valdes was an unbelievable puncher!!! Then you say he wasn't a KO artists.He was aggressive, Ig he was a top puncher he gets more Ko's. Simple. You can't even decide on what you are saying. Valdes was a short fighter, who fought Monzon past his best and floored him.

I'd say Canelo has faster hands, didn't not cut as easy, and fights smarter. Three things you missed. Canelo does SEVERAL things better than Valdes outside of moving his head and taking a better punch. You see obvious comparisons like this, you just can't seem to identify. Canelo is very good on the counter too. Probably better than Valdes based on what I have seen.

It's not GGG's fault that the top welter in his time avoided him and did not want to take a match at 160. Its not his fault that Martinez as champion wanted no part, nor did Cotto who beat him. Monzon's commotion level was not good, and those where were decent much shorter, past their prime or lower weigh guys moving up had a style math up issue. To win the title, Monzon beat a past his best guy as well.

I

Yes, GGG's KO are far more impressive.

Now I have you...the IBRO group of historians, some of whom post on this board did a poll on the top 20 middles ( Pre GGG's career ) doesn't have Valdes making the cut. He's not even voted for as others just making the cut. Not top 30. As I said Valdes is not quite hall of fame material. I have asked others and they think GGG will be featured in the next member poll, and I'll bet you any amount you want to lose that GGG will make the boxing hall of fame. If you cam name 30 fighters bette than GGG, you'lll be picked apart by those who know what they are seeing / talking about. Go for it!

[url]https://www.ibroresearch.com/2006/09/middleweights/[/url]

Nope, he was cut too often in the ring. Cuts seldom play a roll in the outcome, but given Valdes style which featured little movement or a keep away jab ,it was a problem for him.

I think Canleo is better than Valdes. I also think GGG would beat ANY Monzon opponent ( at the same time Monzon fight them ) more impressively than Monzon himself did.

Okay, so he took a good body shot well past his prime. That does't mean much. He won that fight. If you go on title defense, GGG has more of them, and fought more natural middles. GGG could have been champion much sooner. He was avoided as I showed you.

He did not have more title defense, only lineal, partly because he caught a past his prime champion early. GGG's best opponet was a BS robbery, don't you agree? Unlike Valdes Cannelo was in his prime and GGG was not...yet he still deserved to beat him.

Well if you read my reply I corrected you a few times, that not not up for debate either as what I said is correct. Is funny you think you know you're right when you 're not. Other-times you can't make up your mind. I don't think Monzon is a bum, I'm just realistic on what I see and he never fought middle close to his height in his prime, not did he fight many fast handed people. Monzon looked good based on who he fought and when he fought them and IMO many other middles you rated below him could beat him.

 

Do you want a list of all the full fledged middles Monzon fought ?
I provided one when you came out with this BS before?

 

It amazes me when people devote so much time to witnessing a sport and acquire zero understanding of what is actually happening.

 

The only person Sturm is avoiding, these days, is the Tax Man; since he retired in 2016.

 

"Monzon's commotion level was not good, and those where were decent much shorter, past their prime or lower weigh guys moving up had a style math up issue. To win the title, Monzon beat a past his best guy as well."
Your statement above, complete with spelling mistakes.lol

Here is the list
Valdes 5'9.5" 159 3/4lbs. Heavier than Monzon in their 2nd fight 58.9% ko's The only man to stop Briscoe

Tonna 5'9.5" 1591.2lbs .Heavier than Monzon in 2nd fight 64.91% ko's

Licata 160lbs 3/4lb heavier than Monzon.

Mundine 5'10" 159 1 /2lbs 66.67%ko's Won Aussie Lhvy title.

Bouttier 5'9 .5" 159lbs 59.72%ko's.Equal weight as Monzon

Bogs 159lbs Just 1/4lb lighter than Monzon.Fought at Lhvy.

Benvenuti 5'11" 1/2 heavier than Monzon in the 2nd fight equal weights for the 1st.

Moyer 5'8.5" just1/4lbs the lighter man.

Even Griffith ,then the number 1 contender was just 4lbs the lighter man.

 

You want to downgrade Monzon because in some title fights he had a pound weight advantage over some challengers?


How about these stats?

Jeffries VERSUS THE FOLLOWING
Corbett 27 &32lbs weight advantage.
Fitzsimmons 39 &47lbs weight advantage.
Sharkey 28&27lbs weight advantage.
Armstrong 25lbs weight advantage.
Ruhlin 18lbs weight advantage.
Griffin 40lbs weight advantage.
Finnegan 60lbs weight advantage.
Everett 26lbs weight advantage.
Choynski 52lbs weight advantage.
Jackson 23lbs weight advantage.
Double standards????LOL

ps I haven't mentioned the age and inactivity of some of his opponents, I hardly needed to!

 

This is why you suck. I said lower weight guys who moved up , meaning guys from the lower weight division. What they weight in for 160 is not what I am talking about.

I also said he beat a guy past his best to win a title which is true. Hey Valdes himself was past his best.

 

Valdes had been a middleweight for 6 years and won the vacant title after Monzon retired.
Brisoce had been a middleweight for 6 years.
Licata 5 years.
Tonna,Mundine,Bogs.Were career middles.
Griffith had been fighting middles for years had been the middleweight champion and beat;
Harris, Tigerx2 ,Benvenuti,Archerx2,Heilamn,Guitierrez,Bogs x2,Scott.
And he was the number 1 contender.
Benvenuti was 32 years old .
This may surprise you but when titles change hands it is often because a champion has fallen off slightly!lol A year earlier Benvenuti had scored a one punch ko of Luis Rodriguez.
His record when Monzon dethroned him was 82-4-1 , 3 of those losses came to Griffith, Kim , and Tiger!
You are a nonsense!

 

Since Sturm has not boxed for 4 years, and is 41 years old , I'm going to hazard a guess he is retired!LOL

 

Floyd Patterson never announced his retirement,when's his next fight going to be?
When you make asinine statements such as this below.
You forfeit any right of expectation to be taken seriously .
"Also was the competition during the second world war very poor, in opposite to during Abrahams reign. "

Last edited: Friday at 6:29 PM
[url]Ra's Al-Ghul[/url], [url]Friday at 6:14 PM[/url] [url]Report[/url]
Here are some fighters ranked at middleweight during WW2
Moore
Charles
Burley
Tunero
Basora
Chase
Belloise
Bivins
Lamotta
Cerdan
Richards
Apostoli


Here are Abraham's opposition
Ikeke
Taylor
Miranda
Demers
Gevor
Elcock
Ayala
Marquez
Simon
Oral
Eastman
Below is another stupid comment from you
"Also moved Charles up quickly, so he was harldy avoided in Middleweight by someone."

NB I never said Charles was avoided at middleweight, I said he was ranked there at no2.
As to him being moved up very quickly Charles has 33 fights at, or around middleweight Abraham just 29!


You really do not have a clue do you!

 

Hamdan beat who? Castillejo was really a light middle.

You named
Wright
Pavlik
Sturm
Hopkins
Trinidad
How many of them did Abraham fight?

 

Is anyone agreeing with your comments on this thread?