Joe Louis Heavyweight Perfection ??

Not the greatest physical specimen, not tall or big by modern standards, mostly effective and balanced but not dynamic footwork, could look lost against boxer types and too long in position for taking shots at time. Not the greatest chin but recovered very well. Power, speed and balance were all A+. Not perfection but no one is.

I think he would be competitive with all listed and really only struggle with big, athletic heavies who can box.... the K's, Lewis, Ali, Holmes... I don't think he can keep up with a prime Tyson's positioning either. But he's not out of any of those fights. And I would probably favor him over the rest.

 

He was lucky he fought a shot Carnera. Prime Primo ends it in 5

 

Joe Louis was the perfect boxer-puncher, he loved to sit back and counter when it suited him, but most people were smarter than that so he had to stalk his opponents. Which he did using his exceptional jab and angled, shifting footwork. He had a way of making his opponents weary, his punches had so much power in them that he had them running after a combination of two. Speaking of which his combinations were crazy. Unbelievable pin-point precision and perfect structure, lots of torque, as short as can be. His right hand was perfect, came crushing down across guards and shattered people. From what I've seen from Louis he had excellent punch selection, very serviceable defence, brilliant timing and accuracy, along with the best set of fundamentals I've seen at heavyweight. He also showed an uncanny ability to adapt between fights, demolishing guys in rematches which is tell-tale of a great ring IQ.

He is not the "perfect heavyweight" though imo. He had too many stylist issues for that, also his chin wasn't the best. By stylist issues, I mean that he showed in his career that a squat swarmer with a sturdy chin and pouncing left hook could beat him(see Godoy fight), he also showed that a faster, technical boxer with quicker feet could beat him(Conn fight). He did also show weaknesses to crafty counter-punchers with good ring IQs(Walcott, Charles and Schmeling, but these were either pre-prime or past it).

For guys I'd pick over Louis; it'd be Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Liston, Tyson, Frazier & Marciano. I'd pick him to beat Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Wlad, Vitali, Toney, Holyfield, Dempsey, Johnson, Ike, Bowe, Byrd ect.

I don't agree that he was tall though, he was averaged height in his day and tiny by modern standards at HW. You say he had perfect punch placement? I 100% agree. If somebody said to me he's the greatest puncher of all time, from a technical perspective, I'd have 0 argument otherwise. His range controlling was apart of his textbook perfection jab and footwork. An underrated aspect of his game is his infighting, in which he showed off the body punching you mentioned.

 

The perfect heavyweight would look more like Joe Louis than anybody else.

 

Louis' footwork was perfect for his style of drawing them onto his combinations, but he showed in the fight with Max Baer that he could demonstrate fleet of foot if required.

I'm interested in why you figure primed Tyson, Frazier and Marciano over prime Louis but not Dempsey, appreciating, of course, the differences in strength, chin and utilisation of crouching, bobbing and weaving upperbody movement and accompanying footwork between them all.

 

It's more I don't rate Dempsey anywhere nearly as highly as I do the other 3. Another factor I don't like in that one is that Dempsey and Louis are more or less the same height, the crouch of Dempsey wouldn't be that low and would be pretty prime for Louis' power shots. Frazier and Marciano are much tougher and long lasting imo, the pace they could keep up was higher.

Tyson was quicker and more explosive and would be able to cause an opening to exploit early imo. Whilst Joe and Rocky would grind Louis down imo.

Frazier's eratic Bob and Weave lets him keep landing the left hook whilst taking oomph out of Louis' power, he could dip into an uppercut and get dispatched when hurt though.

Marciano would do what Marciano does and wear him down with constant power shots, at some point he's going to land one clean and when he does(probably after 30 minutes or so of brawling) Louis goes down imo. Obviously I could be overrating Marciano's chin and Louis takes him out too.

Dempsey would probably get a KD and hurt Louis but I think he's getting caught, bagged and brutally KOed, probably in 5/6. Patterson in similar fashion, albeit sooner.

 

In the book on Ali it was stated Ali was stricken by appendicitis & the surgeon that operated on him said " This man has the perfect athletes body it was a shame I had to scar his body'

 

I don't rate Dempsey as highly, but reckon him to be likely the best pure boxer out of the four, although, with Tyson's speed of jab and headmovement, I'm sure that I might view it differently if I think about it some more. I think Dempsey is legit enough at all ranges to find a way inside Joe's heavy jab and then explode with sharp body work and hooks thrown from various angles. I do think that Joe could be prone to ponderous footmovement at times and it is here that Dempsey does well.

Additionally, I think that Joe's in-ring adaptability isn't elite, but yeah, I think despite being buzzed, I have doubts as to whether Dempsey could finish a primed, better boxer in Louis, where, I don't have the same doubts that Louis can finish a Dempsey that he has knocked down or started to time with rights and uppercuts.

 

He was certainly close to perfection.

 

He beats Holyfield,Toney,Shavers,Marciano,Frazier,Norton,imo.
I think the others may be toss ups.

 

Actually I believe a prime Louis is a nightmare for Frazier and Marciano. I've always thought a prime Louis stops Rocky inside 8. Frazier never jabbed his way in that often and he's gonna get him by powerful shots from a great finisher. I can see Frazier getting dropped 2 or 3 times and losing a UD or getting stopped late

 

Closest to perfection at HW imo.

Speed, accuracy, power, perfect form on every punch, stance, good defence (shoulder roll, parries), deceptively good footwork, chin, recovery.
His highlight reel is unmatched.

 

Yes. The only heavy I see beating him is a 60s Ali, who had the skills to even possibly stop him. But that's more a question of styles. Joe was unquestionably a heavier hitter than Ali, and where Ali did land plenty of combinations, when Joe started landing them the opponent was usually not long for this world. Ali was simply, significantly lighter-handed.

 

Until Ali came along, Louis was the absolute blueprint for the Heavyweights. It's difficult to weigh up how he would have gone against some of today's behemoths but in terms of skills I can only see a peak, pre suspension Ali beating him although I think he might struggle against Larry Holmes as Larry's jab might negate Joe's.