Well specifically I’d like to know what fights were fixed? I ask this as a serious question. Besides the Ali fights. Besides those two the comment was more aimed at those who say he only had one defense.
H2H, Spinks was better than anyone Liston beat IMO. His resume is shallow but he was clearly more skilled than the fighters Liston beat. Liston beat Patterson, Folley, Williams, Machen. These are his best wins. Tyson beat Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Ruddock, Berbick, Thomas, Bonecrusher, Tubbs, Bruno, Williams. Liston KO'd Patterson, Folley, Williams. All 3 had suspect chins. They all have the same weakness- punchers. Machen had a good chin and he went 12 rounds. Patterson, Folley, Machen weighed 194.5 lbs (average). Tyson is the only fighter to stop Holmes and Spinks. Also stopped durable fighters like Berbick, Ruddock, and Thomas. Big HWs (other than Spinks). Tyson beat bigger and better fighters (h2h). Tyson was more skilled than Liston. Other than the jab, what did Liston do better than Tyson? Tyson was the better offensive fighter. Combination punching, body punching, counter punching, footwork, accuracy, technique, Tyson was better at everything. Tyson obviously had better defence. Tyson had a better chin and he was the bigger puncher (proven against legit HWs). Tyson was the better fighter overall.
Nobody is obsessed here, its called weightclass in boxing. For some reason, little weight differences tend to mean much @ lower weightclasses, but 20lb tend to be ignored @HW. You´re the one equalizing this rule, to make your hero fit into non-existing coherences. Even if you say that Liston and Tyson had the same power, stamina and durability (often named), why should someone pick a fighter to win having less handspeed, footspeed and defensive abilities? Thats a heck of a disadvantage going toe to toe, even if you have a slower, but well thrown jab. But yes I agree that Listons power, with a much lower KO-ratio too, is alot more unproven.
So by your theory Tyson and Marciano should have never been champs? Trying to understand your weight issue here. They both on average were out weighed by their opponents by a considerable amount. How they became dominant fighters is beyond me being practically midgets? Anyhow. I never stated Liston to be a favorite. I stated him to be even money. Yes he losses the speed department. All things considered even with power and chin. Listons reach is considerable which isn’t really that important to me because Tyson at his best was able to get inside the opponents reach and could close off a ring. My only beef with Tyson isn’t heart it’s his ability to control distance. His best opponents owned him pretty terribly because of this weakness. He could not fight when you crowded him (Holyfield) or those with great jabs who kept him on the outside (Douglas for one night Lewis and Holmes till he got caught). Liston wasn’t a brawler. He could box had power and a chin he also made people fight his fight and could adapt when necessary. Tyson for all his great attributes maybe better then all others (speed power balance) could not adapt well. Question is to you which I won’t answer is can Liston make Mike fight his fight? I think it’s fifty fifty
@GOAT Primo Carnera meant respectfully, could you reup that link, please? It's not coming up and I'd be interested in seeing it. Also, I have to mention Foreman sang a totally different song during his comeback, saying with utter conviction he'd knock Mike out in two rounds. Check out the video, there's no fear or uncertainty there. At one point George called Lennox Lewis the greatest heavyweight who ever lived (for beating a shot Tyson). George's assertions change like the wind...let's not forget the excuses he's made up for Ali beating him over the years (drugged water, right. The only drug he took in Zaire was a sleeping tablet called Muhammad Ali). And, according to a couple of insiders I trust, people who were part of the inner circle of Mike's early 90s entourage, Tyson feared George. Notice how his eyes avert whenever he's asked about Foreman. But all respect to your views, I always make sure to read your posts, my friend.
Tyson beat a grandpa Holmes who'd been out of the ring for nearly two years and a blown up light heavyweight who beat a drunk Cooney and a Holmes three years past his prime. Big deal. I have a lot of respect for Mike during his prime, plus his seeming to grow a heart against Ruddock. But none of his wins were against guys like prime Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Ali...not even close. I'd be interested in hearing arguments against that...really. He got beat up and then quit against Holy, a guy he was supposed to beat the crap out of. He got beat by Buster whatsisname...who were the dudes who knocked him silly in the 00s? Again, I have Mike in my top ten ATGs, but let's not blow the trumpet too loud, Ali might turn over in his grave.
Charles Sonny Liston wins by a KO 10. Both Iron Mike Tyson and The Big Ugly Bear were fierce punchers who intimidated many foes. Liston was used to beating up his fellow inmates in the yard at the penitentiary. Tyson given his mental struggles that are well documented, was very intimidating and the fact that Sonny was one of his heroes, would make for an interesting match. Kevin Rooney and Cus D Amato would do their best to steer Mike away from Liston, much the same way Cus try to steer Floyd Patterson away from Sonny in 1962 and failed. Willie Reddish advises Sonny to go after Mike like a prison inmate that said something bad about his wife Geraldine. This tactic surprises Tyson who has to fight defensively for a whole round, bobbing and weaving. Sonny begins to establish his pole like left jab to the face of Mike. Iron Mike's only recourse is to target the large body of The Bear. Sonny's 14 inch fist begin to land combinations to Mike's head and body. Every time Tyson looks to advance, Sonny pushes Mike back on his heels, as he is having trouble trying to land his thunderous blows. In round 10 Mike catches a Liston left hook and falls to the canvas, as he arises from the canvas, Sonny lands at will, Cus D Amato tosses a white towel into the ring, referee Arthur Mercante waves off the fight. Another Cus D Amato fighter has lost to Sonny Liston.
Just watch this, Liston was a destroyer (even at age 49)....probably a bit more like Foreman than Iron Mike. Anyone blame the ref for stopping this? This content is protected
Liston at his best punishes Tyson, Tyson not going to intimidate Liston his ram rod jab and power will finish Tyson
It's not like they sent me a list lol. It's simply common sense. Why would they back him for so long and only fix the losses? Does that sound like a rational business plan? To me it sounds like the business plan people wish the mafia would have used so they can give Sonny full credit for every win and handwave away the losses. But it doesn't jive with how they actually operated. In reality, a fearsome puncher is the exact type of fighter they'd have wanted because nobody would ever question the win.
To me it's speed, anybody that came, raded with Tyson has little chance. No comparison for the wins stated, Williams was nothing, Tyson ko'd 10 better fighters than him. Actually rate Sonny as good as Liston but a bad match up for him. Speed.
