If Rocky didn't retire when he did, who do you think would have been the first guy to beat him?

True! After fighting 2-3 more gatekeepers, a 1957 Version of Patterson would be a challanging opponent for an elderly Rocky Marciano due to his speed, stamina and good boxing education.

 

I think what we also have to take into consideration is Rocky’s ultra-cautious manager Al Weill. He was already avoiding the big dudes like Baker and Valdez so we can rule out Weill taking any further risks with an aging rocky on his hands. I say his next defense would have been hurricane Jackson. A small dude who wouldn’t duck if his life depended on it. After that he would be scanning the top 10 for low risk opposition unless rocky did like Patterson did when d’amato was avoiding Liston and insist upon a real defense

 

I think Patterson presents all kinds of problems to an old Rocky... Handspeed, foot quicks, power, stamina... It's a tough match-up for a prime Rocky, a bad one for a guy with growing injuries and diminishing will to give it all in training.

 

They are not even remotely alike.

 

This is nonsense, they just fought whoever was the #1 contender.

They couldn't have been less cautious.

You really don't seem to have got your head around the politics of the era.

Marciano just took on whoever was the most highly ranked contender.

It is possible that he might have been matched more cautiously as he declined, but if he was that would have been a radical change of direction.

It might have been Jackson next, or somebody like Pastrano.

 

Really? Hardly nonsense. I think I actually do have my head around the politics of the time. I do think you are a bit naïve, however, or simply believe I am besmirching a hero of yours, which I clearly am not. I have the utmost respect for Rocky. But you have to understand what a picky/cautious manager can do. I think Rocky and Roberto Duran would have fought a caged animal if signed to do so (tongue-in-cheek), but they had managers who were trying to get the most buck at the lowest risk. Hey, they're doing their job for their star pupil and they want to keep the money train rolling. Looking at Rock's title defenses, JJ Walcott was correct. He was the ex-champ and he gave Rocky a desperate fight. No problem with this. Next Roland LaStarza. He was not #1 contender, Ezzard was #1. I think Weill saw the money-making opportunities with a LaStarza defense. Next was EC himself, but he was no longer #1, Nino Valdes was. I don't believe Weill liked those big boys. Next was the rematch with Charles. I don't see any issue with this. He took Rocky to the brink and deserved his rematch. Next was Don Cockell. Again, when it was signed, Nino was still the #1 contender. Again, I believe Weill liked the smaller man and Don had zero chance. Next was Archie Moore, who supplanted Nino. By then I think Bob Baker was #2, but I may be off on my timetable there. But that was an easy choice for Weill. A smaller man who was #1 and it looked good despite his age. So its not always black and white. Valdes went a long time as #1 with no title shot. There are always politics behind the scenes and it takes a shrewd manager to exploit it. For what it's worth, the two fighters that really got screwed over during the Marciano reign was Valdes and Baker. and I believe Rocky would have handled them both.

 

Patterson didn't have the chin to survive Marciano - Cus knew it it and that's why they waited for Rocky to retire- I knew Patterson's brother in law very well and he confirmed that. Baker was KO'd by Moore and Satterfield and Nino lost to Moore 2 X and in 1955 Bob Satterfield -

I was going to say Al Weil but Al was one of the reasons Marciano quit-

As far as who would do it hard to say when fighters slip up and lose their reflexes it happens sometimes gradually and sometimes all of a sudden

I expected Holmes to lose to Thomas or Coetzee or Page, never expected him to lose to light heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks who never fought a heavyweight fight at that point.

I never expected Ali to lose to Leon Spinks in Leons 6th (I think) pro fight

I didn't expect Wlad to lose to Fury (but now I know why)

Hard to say how long Marciano would have been able to train as hard as he did

Frazier had shaky moments right after the FOTC against tuneups Ron Stander and Terry Daniels - stunned - he dominated but was hit and stunned (and then Foreman)

Attrition punchers need to fight for as long as they can give their best - my guess is Rocky had a few fights left in him but that type of style if you lose a little it could mean a lot

 

On Sept 14 1958, European Heavyweight Champion knocked out top challenger Eddie Machen, in round 1. In 1958, Charles Sonny Liston was hitting his peak and was highly rated, two years away from beating Eddie Machen on points. I think a possible Rocky Marciano vs Ingemar Johansson title bout could have been made, Ingo's Bingo was a legendary right hand, but Rocky was a swarming fighter which could make things tough for Ingo. I believe the fighter with a better chance to defeat a slipping champion in 1958, would have been none other than The Big Ugly Bear, Sonny Liston. He had the hard left jab and overall boxing skill and he could take a punch at that particular time, he fought with a broken jaw in a losing effort against Marty Marshall, in 1954. Eddie Machen was a very good fighter despite his losses to Ingo, Sonny, and to Floyd Patterson, on July 5 1964, by unanimous decision. The Machen that lost to Joe Frazier on Nov 21 1966, by KO10 was by then very shopworn.

 

If his back and the rest of his body hadn’t failed him he quite possibly could have gone on until Liston came along. Though Ingo, Floyd and Machen would have been very tough fights

 

Floyd's chin vs the "Suzie Q?"....OUCH!!!

 

49-0 is much better than 49-1.

 

Liston in 1958 beats an older Marciano imo. Reasonably clear too.

 

Not enough is made of this tbh. Valdes was number 1 contender from August '53 to May '55. In that he schedules the following:

2nd Defense - 7th ranked contender
3rd Defense - 2nd ranked contender who'd lost to the 1st ranked contender
4th Defense - rematch with the guy who lost to the 1st ranked contender
5th Defense - surely he'll schedule in his mandatory now right? Nah let's fight Don C0ckell, who would get stopped 6 rounds quicker by Valdes several months later

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck

 

Absolutely! pressure fighters / small punchers do not age well. They're usually done after ~30-32. Look at Frazier, Tyson, Haye, Quarry, LaMotta
Otherwise for those jabbing giants like Lewis, W. Klitschko, Holmes, Ali, etc. age is just a number.
Best example is 35 yr old Tyson vs 36 yr old Lewis. Tyson wasn't even close to have any chance.