I have gotten so used to modern fights where you'll see both guys "falling" into a clinch or smothering their own work constantly that I was, quite frankly, shocked when I rewatched the Leonard vs Hearns fights. In their first bout, I dont believe there was a single clinch until the 7th round. And in the 2nd fight a clinch was not initiated until the 4th when Hearns was badly wobbled. In both fights, I dont think there were more than maybe 15-20 clinches (keep in mind the first fight nearly lasted 14 rounds). This is not a "old school is better than modern fighting" thread. After all classic fighters such as the infamous Ernie Terrel who got the nickname the "octopus" for his excessive clinching. But it does beg the question why is it allowed so often if it's illegal?!? Whose to blame? A clinch serves many purposes both offensively and defensively. A good fighter knows how to manipulate a guard and fight his way out or even stay within a clinch and remain effective (see Duran, Frazier and other expert inside fighters). Stalling for time after being rocked or to catch a breather are NOT the only reasons to hold, contrary to popular belief. A skilled fighter can actually make a clinch become a moment of excitement as you anticipate that they may be trying to set up traps, counters, or sneak in some nice body shots. Clinching can simply be another tool in a fighter's arsenal. Unfortunately many fighters clinch not just because they're trying to avoid getting stopped, but because they dont know how to block. They are taught how to jab, cross, counter, throw combinations, uppercuts, etc but have no concept or training when it comes to defense other than covering up or grabbing someone when hurt. Matches will often become a "I hit, you hit" rather than both guys trying to set up their offense, outthink each other or exchange. But this is more of a fault with trainers than fighters. It's their job to teach the "sweet science" and make sure a boxer is well rounded and prepared in case plan A doesn't work. A lot of guys expect to just go on offense and not expect too much resistance and it shows. Their lack of cardio and endurance training is also evident. If the coach did their job and the fighter didn't listen that's another story. But we can't overlook the crucial role referees play. It is literally their job to enforce the rules and if a fighter has clinched 10x in the past minute and have been given multiple warnings deduct a damn point. It robs both the fans who paid hard earned money and the fighters who will have to learn the lesson the hard way by not being prepared or following the rules. Thoughts?
Great post!!! I wonder the same thing. It’s part of the reason big men rule so often today. They hit from afar and if anyone gets in close they illegally clinch. And for the life of me I I’ve never seen points deducted or anything more then a warning. It’s bad for the sport. Terrible for the sport actually.
It's on the referee to know the difference between active and inactive clinch work. Force fighters to work and penalize those who don't.
How do you know this? Which fighters (and trainers) do you have in mind? And are you just talking about heavyweights?
How do I know that there is an excessive amount of clinching in many fights nowadays? Because I watch boxing...? A recent example is wilder vs fury 2. Both guys are guilty if we're being honest. Wilder had no clue what to do backing up or after being badly hurt. He grabbed around the waist even as he was falling. His go to defense is to simply raise his arms. Fury got deducted a point for his excessive clinching. In his case it was an offensive maneuver: jab, then grab immediately before Wilder could get off. The illegal guillotine head locks also stood out. Brilliant game plan, but it wouldn't have been as effective with better officiating. When was the last time you saw a fight that looked even remotely similar to Hearns vs Leonard where both guys are letting their hands go and the ref barely has to do anything? It's probably why Manny Pacquiao is still so popular at 40 because he is all action from round 1-12. Errol Spence is also a throwback fighter; I enjoyed his fight with Shawn Porter. Neither guy gave an inch and weren't content to just lean on each other or tie up. I thought it would be a repeat of the Kell Brook vs Porter snooze fest but it turned out to be a classic back and forth war. But those guys are the exceptions. Mayweather definitely helped contribute to this epidemic as no ref wanted to come under fire for possibly threatening the money Man's record if they took a point away. Amir Khan is clueless on defense and that's probably why he's been stopped so often (all he can do is clinch). As good as Joshua looked in the Ruiz rematch, je still has no idea what to do inside (Ruiz nailed him with dozens of uppercuts and hooks whenever Joshua clumsily reached out to grab whenever he was hurt). Sergey Kovalev is another guy who hates pressure and fighting his way out of situations. He will grab you like a free sample and will squeeze the life out of you if you get too close. Some undercard fights are actually more entertaining than the main event as they have something to prove!
Thanks but I quoted the specific part of your post that I was asking about. This part: "Unfortunately many fighters clinch not just because they're trying to avoid getting stopped, but because they dont know how to block. They are taught how to jab, cross, counter, throw combinations, uppercuts, etc but have no concept or training when it comes to defense other than covering up or grabbing someone when hurt. Matches will often become a "I hit, you hit" rather than both guys trying to set up their offense, outthink each other or exchange. But this is more of a fault with trainers than fighters. It's their job to teach the "sweet science" and make sure a boxer is well rounded and prepared in case plan A doesn't work. A lot of guys expect to just go on offense and not expect too much resistance and it shows. Their lack of cardio and endurance training is also evident."
Clinching is another thing that changed due to the gloves. The attached thumb gloves make it harder to grab a guy; older guys showed how they were taught specific ways to grab the opponent to immobilize and move him with minimal effort. Meanwhile he expends energy trying to get loose. You can't grab like that any more so I don't think that I have ever taught it to anyone. That is knowledge that will die out because it doesn't apply any more. The focus in training has been on landing punches on the way in for some years now. And, like the guy everyone was copying, it became common to fall in too close to do anything but tie up. Another part of it is the trend to squaring up. To be clear: When I say "squared up" I am referring to your hip and shoulders being square to an opponent. Your left foot can be in front of your right foot and you can still be 100% square up. When you come in with your shoulders square, you can be wrapped up very easily. The opponent can just wrap his arms around you. That is much harder to do to somebody in an angled stance, with the left hip and shoulder well forward. The angled stance also makes it easier to create distance, even when in real close, by turning your shoulders or by small movements of the feet.
Because I watch fights. I gave you examples. I don't know what you want me to say. If a guy gets hurt and starts stumbling around and clinching 10x per round its obvious he doesn't have good defense and the coach didn't teach him good defense (or he didn't listen). If a match becomes 2 guys taking turns hitting and then covering up or clinching its obvious neither guy knows how to set up offense and is scared to exchange. If a fighter is gassed and clinching after 5 rounds and they spent the first 4 rounds swinging for the fences it's obvious they didn't take the opponent serious and didn't prepare anything beyond plan A. Ever hear the phrase "actions speak louder than words"...? I don't need to interview a coach to find out what a fighter is or isn't doing in training. Can you name some good fighters who have good defense who excessively clinch and simply raise their arms to block?
The perpetrator may be a pain in everyone's ass, but the onus is always on the opponent to do something about it. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/handling-negativity-what-to-do-and-what-not-to-do.491028/
"Quit holding, Ray." As a Hagler fan, I hate these words. Ref said it a thousand times and Leonard still didn't listen, should've taken a point
If you think that's bad you'd probably be appalled by Hearns in his fights against Kinchen and Roldan! https://streamable.com/onpe
