Not any of the fighters he fought are considered ATG at the time he fought them. So yes your argument is because of the opponents he faced you assume, no fighter in history would be able to touch him..... My opinion is your wrong, and I gave me reasons for it. You assume he can go 15rds because he went 12 relatively easily, but over my long history of observing the sport I've seen plenty of fighters fade in what used to be called the "Championship rounds". Would Jones? I don't know this, and you don't either because he never had to. You seem to be caught up on Jones Speed, as if no fighter in history wouldn't be able to touch him. But as R.Robinson, R.Leonard, H.Camacho Sr, Ali, can attest to if your opponent is great, and in their primes any fighter can be beaten. It's easy to look extremely fast against average competition, if Robinson fought a average competition his entire career, he may not have lost until his late 30's, same with R Leonard, and Ali. No fighter is undeafeatable, boxing is not a Bruce Lee movie. I give Jones a ton of credit for his accomplishments, he was one of the most gifted fighters I've ever seen. But he never faced any opponent with the power, endurance and will to win as Monzon had. Could Jones win a 12 rd fight against Monzon? Sure he could, but 15rds? What happens when Monzon doesn't get discouraged, and is applying the same study pressure in the 13rd as he was in the 6th? How would Jones react when things are not going his way? We never saw this attribute with Jones, he fought no one who could push him to that limit. But I believe Monzon could over 15rds. And based on what happened to him late in his career, when shots that were missing started to connect, I don't believe he could have. That's the big difference between Fighters like Robinson and Ali and Jones. Robinson and Ali proved they could take it . Jones never proved that , how does he receive credit for it?
We are speaking of Jose Mantequilla Napoles vs Carlos Monzon, on Feb 9 1974, in Paris, France. Or are we talking about Carlos?
Excellent post and, in particular, very glad that you addressed the “speed” obsession. If speed were the be all and end all of winning then Boxing history would read a lot differently.
I don`t understand, it meant he was open to counters, however I do think Napoes was a better, more consistent counter puncher than Jones who failed to land many counters v Griffin in their first bout and had to throw wild leads in the rematch to overpower Montell something he couldn`t have tried v Monzon.
Speed is very important in boxing because it means you can move your head off the center quicker before a fighter can get their punches off, Roy displayed better head movement in his fights than Monzon did in his bouts.
Roy Jones was great, just because I think Monzon would beat him does not mean I don’t think Roy Jones is one of the best ever. Yes Jones was a lot faster but speed is not everything. This content is protected
Don't get me wrong, Jones was a great fighter. But some make it seems he couldn't be defeated. My point is their were holes in his game. And if those holes were found be another fighter that may not have been as athletically gifted, but better skilled, and stronger willed. ( Something that is very underestimated by so many on this web site) Who knows what would have happened? But it can be inferred by what him happened to Jones when he did slow a little, it probably wouldn't have been good.
Flash24, Okay. Where have I said that no fighter in history would be able to have touched him? I haven't said that at all. I could envisage a number of guys beating him. Monzon would have had a chance, but I'd have made Roy a clear favourite based on what I've seen of both guys and how I think they're styles would have meshed. Regarding not facing prime ATG's, again, put Monzon under that same microscope of yours. I'll wait. Regarding the 15 rounds, okay, you have a point. Roy didn't get the opportunity to prove it. That's a fair point. Yes, I'm caught up on Roy's speed. You're damn right. Go and look at the gif I sent you. Roy had insane hand speed for a man of his size and he had great reflexes which formed around incredible athleticism. Go and look at the combinations he threw. The timing, the power and the accuracy. Although Monzon was great, he was slow in comparison and Roy would have found him easy enough to hit. It's very unlikely Monzon would have won a decision. He'd have needed to have caught Roy with something huge or he'd have needed to have caught him a lot. And whilst not impossible, it would have been extremely difficult for him. Yes, of course any fighter can be beaten. Roy wasn't invincible. But then neither was Carlos Monzon. And again, where he enjoyed physical advantages over most of his opponents, he wouldn't have had those same advantages over Roy. He wouldn't have been facing a smaller Griffith or a smaller and somewhat faded Nino, he'd have been fighting a prime, almost equal in size Roy Jones, who'd have weighed 170 plus pounds. Get real man. He looked fast because he was. He's clearly one of the fastest MW's in the history of the sport. What average competition? Honestly, I'd love to see you put Monzon's record under the microscope. Come on. And use the same criteria you've used for Roy. Roy didn't just fight average competition. He also made very good fighters look average. He fought nobody with those exact attributes at MW. But he fought across 4 weight classes. He fought very good LHW's and even a HW. I could say that Roy proved more as a whole. It works both ways doesn't it? Carlos never saw a guy like a prime Roy Jones. How do you know he wouldn't have gotten discouraged? How would Monzon react if he was getting beaten to the punch and things weren't going his way? Yes, we did see Roy dig deep. We saw him dig deep against Antonio Tarver when he was drained at 35, after burning muscle and dropping back from HW. Roy proved he had heart. Well that's okay if you think that. No problem. But again, we're looking here at a 25 year old version of Roy. At 25, he didn't get hit with shots that he got hit with at 35 plus, 2 divisions higher. You seem to be just assuming that Monzon could have found those same opportunities. But I don't think so. Because he wasn't fast enough and a younger version of Roy didn't have those diminished reflexes which made him vulnerable. Whilst I have a lot of respect for Carlos, I think the stylistic match up favours Roy. A guy like Hagler had the speed and the southpaw stance that went hand in hand with his technical skills and his pressure and power. A guy like Hearns had the reach advantage and the hand speed that went hand in hand with his technical skills and power. Again, Carlos was great. He had a great jab, great power, and he applied great pressure where he cut off the ring with a ruthless streak. But he didn't have a lot of shots in his arsenal. He didn't have fast hands. He didn't have fast feet. He didn't have great technical skills. He didn't have a great defence where he was hard to hit clean. Like Mendoza noted, he was a bit predictable. Some might even say methodical. He favoured a certain style that worked for him, where he used to wear down smaller guys. The speed factor here would have been extremely relevant. It's strange how you just dismiss it. Again, Monzon wasn't fast and he wouldn't have had a significant reach advantage. Roy could have beaten him to the punch and then got out of the way with his great reflexes. Monzon had the toughness and the power, but not really the speed or the technical skills to really get to Roy, in the ways that other MW greats could have. If you don't agree, that's cool. But out of all of the great MW's of the past, this would have been one of the better opponents for Roy stylistically.
Good points bro, and you've made many. And as I've said many times Jones was a rare talent, and is an ATG . But in my opinion their are many unknowns about him. He could've past with flying colors, he may have failed miserably. But speed isn't everything, their have been many fights were slow methodical fighters walked down a fighter much faster. Prime example was Taylor vs Chavez. I'm sure you'd say Jones was much better than Taylor. My answer would be has Jones faced a fighter as talented and relentless as Chavez. If Jones never faced anyone as skilled as Chavez was, or, as skilled and Methodical as Monzon? How can you say for sure he beats the slower fighter? Their is no real reference with Jones. Their no one he defeated that we can say DAMN, that's a special win. Even the heavyweight fight against Ruiz. Any fight is a calculated risk, but it's much easier to take those risk when you know damn near everthing is in your favor (Mayweather Jr was a expert with that at welter) And for the most part so was Roy Jones Jr. And think about this, if Taylor vs Chavez was a 15rd fight, theirs no controversy. Monzon did go 15 hard rds many times. Those are my reasons for leaning towards Monzon over 15rds.
