Johnson who wasn't close to his prime and was losing to second raters at the time and Jeffries who was a complete novice. Should I use Maher win over Ruhlin too? Choynski couldn't beat Ruhlin at all. Funny that you said about Maher being 1-2 against Goddard but not about Choynski record against Goddard... which was also 1-2. Maher also did better in his prime against Sharkey than Choynski (who lost all three fights against him and two of them were in his prime, prime Maher drew with Sharkey). Maher also did better against Ruhlin two draws with the same timeline as Choynski loss agaist Gus. Choynski didn't do any better against McCoy even though he was closer to his best than old Maher. Again, in their only prime matchup Maher KOed Choynski. This fight was big and was considered as a fight of two best contenders in the world. Maher in second Choynski fight was clearly past his prime, though he was still dangerous. Maher in their thrid fight already had around 140 fights and was losing against any decent fighter at this point. I don't understand how can you judge him with this performance. At best, they were 1-1 and in reality Maher won the most important fight, the only fight when both fighters were at their best.
Johnson had 25+ fights under his belt and had been fighting since 1894. The match took place in 1901. Sure--Maher beat Ruhlin in his 3rd fight in a 3 round match. Doesn't mean anything at all. The 2nd and 3rd meeting were draws. Maybe Ruhlin was the better in the 3rd match. In the fourth and final match, Ruhlin Knocked Maher out. This is supposed to be a Maher and Corbett thread. Choysnki had better results in comparison to Maher. Maher fouled his way into a draw, I suspect had the fight gone on Sharkey's aggression and Maher's suspect chin would results in Sharkey winning.
He'd been also losing to guys like Klondike, past prime Griffin and drawing with guys like Billy Stift and Pete Everett. He wasn't a contender in that period, he was a journeyman. Decent win, but nothing close to prime Johnson. So Choynski drawing with Jeffires in his 6th fight is a huge accomplishement, but beating Ruhlin at similar point of career is irrelevant? Maher drew twice with Ruhlin, which means that he at least proved he wasn't worse than him. Their fourth fight is like Maher's 140th fight, in 14th year of his pro career. Are you insane? He was way past his prime at that point and this fight proves nothing. Show me where Corbett or Choynski were after 140 fights. Again, you did nothing to prove that. I don't care what you suspect. The fact is that Maher went the distance and drew with Sharkey twice and Choynski lost all fights against Sailor Tom.
Here is Johnson's early record according to Box rec,note the amount and the date. [url]1901-02-25[/url] [url]Joe Choynski[/url]52-11-6 Harmony Hall, Galveston L KO 3/20 referee: [url]Herbert Bernau[/url] [url]1901-01-14[/url] [url]Jim Scanlan[/url] Johnson 168lbs Scanlan175lbs 26 4 4 Galveston A.C., Galveston D PTS 7/20 Stopped in round 7 because of the fighters' failure to break clean despite repeated warnings by the referee. Though the referee did not give a decision in the ring, he would later say to the Galveston Daily News that he had ruled the fight a draw. [url]1900-12-27[/url] [url]Klondike Haynes[/url]22-6-3 Phoenix A.C., Memphis W TKO 14/20 Klondike refused to continue after round 14 The fight previously listed here as occurring on May 26, 1902, with Jack Johnson in Memphis, supposedly won by Johnson on 13-round knockout, is undoubtedly a duplication of this fight. No report of a second Memphis fight has ever come to the surface. Also, the second fight did not appear in either the Police Gazette or Andrews record books and made its appearance as an incorrect dating in the 1941 Ring All-Time Record Book, the correctly dated fight being omitted. This produced the confusion and sometimes fights on both dates are listed . [url]1900-04-20[/url] 168 [url]Jim McCormick[/url] Galveston A.C., Galveston W DQ 6/20 . [url]1900-04-09[/url] [url]William McNeill[/url] debut Galveston A.C., Galveston ND 4/4 [url]1900-03-21[/url] [url]Jim McCormick[/url] Galveston A.C., Galveston ND 15/15 . [url]1899-05-06[/url] [url]Klondike Haynes[/url] L TKO 5/6 referee: [url]Malachy Hogan[/url] Chicago Daily Tribune. "...Johnson knocked Haines down in Round one with an uppercut, and only the bell saved Klondyke..." Klondike wore Johnson down with steady pressure. Haynes claimed 'black' Heavyweight title. [url]1898-07-24[/url] [url]Cherokee [/url] debut Kansas City W KO ?/6. [url]1897-11-20[/url] [url]Ed Johnson[/url] debut Convention Hall, Galveston W KO 5/? referee: [url]Billy McCarthy[/url] Billed for the Texas State Middleweight Title. [url]1897-11-01[/url] [url]Charley Brooks[/url] debut Prof. Bernau's Gymnasium, Galveston W KO 2/15 referee: [url]Kid Lewis[/url] Billed for the Texas State Middleweight Title. This says Johnson had 12 fights before facing Choynski who had 69. It also says Johnson began in1897. not 1894. Would you please provide the other 13 plus fights you say Johnson had had when he fought Choynski and also give the dates please?
Johnson wasn't half of the fighter he became around mid-1900s. It's a nice win for the fighter at the end of his prime, but nothing remarkable in comparison to Maher wins. Neither is Jeffries draw, if anything I'm more impressed that green Jeffries drew with prime Choynski than the other way. Nothing suggests that Choynski was "in different class" than Maher. Mendoza keep using post-1900 Maher record as an argument that Maher wasn't great in 1890s. It seems that for him fighting 120+ fights in 12+ years doesn't make you past prime. I say it for the last time - in their only relevant fight (billed as a superfight back then, sources from Janitor) Maher KOed him cleanly. Maher did better against Ruhlin and Sharkey and the same against Goddard. What makess Joe in different class than Maher?
In1897 Johnson was a middleweight. In April 1900 Johnson scaled 168lbs for a fight with Jim Scanlon,this was just 10 months before he fought Choynski!
Do you think that Maher has reasonable claims for P4P all-time power puncher? He had more knockouts than any heavyweight and his power was legendary. His resume is deep enough to consider him really good fighter.