What's the best argument against FMJ being the greatest?

This was one refuses to die, it seems. They were MWs when Robinson was still a WW. Yes, he did face a number of MWs when he was still a WW, but that doesn't mean he was under som obligation to fight every top MW out there.

When Robinson moved up to MW full time, these guys were all gone from the picture.

 

What do you consider the "modern" era? Post-WW2... or do you have another definition?

 

If I understand your position- vet each hero already enshrined,revered the same w/Floyd asking; Which ATG didn't win a questionable fight? If not your point, my bad!

For me that's solidified by the timing of his retirements. In reel-time, when he left 1st timeout there were too many undefeated welters to claim supremacy, mines was Paul Williams-32-0 WW Champ who called out Floyd & Pac in 2007. I get him taking on DLH, that was his payday.
2008 he retires when Berto grabs a portion of the WW pie via WBC, right? He went ghost end of 2007- & coming back he wouldn't fight for a title until near end of 2011, how'd that happen? Why? He comes back for Marquez @ catchwegight, then Mosley. 2 good fights, but one should ask how does an ATG maintain such a status without any belt from Hatton Dec '07 till Ortiz nov 2011?

Berto was WBC's WW champ until 2011?
I'm ok with his argument not fighting Rito- that was his best business move ever- opting to buy himself out per a clause that was valid like a fast food coupon, 30 days! I think that is why Arum tried to offer $8mil...he takes it- he had to remain with Top Rank.

Because I'm The Big 51 as of last week! I can name names in my era that made questionably timed retirements as well.

This act ranks among my all-time low actions of a fighter list- Ray Leonard calling out Hagler, All Time Greats, The Media and Fans in at an arena in Baltimore just to say 7:45 in this clip:
" A fight with Hagler could be one of the greatest in the history, but unfortunately it will never happen. Thank you and God Bless you all."

I wonder D-Tatum, how would the internet had responded if Ray was fighting today and did that to a MW champ, lol?! And if it is true that Ray Robinson said "he's too pretty to fight Charlie Burley"...IMO? How would ESB fightfans look at Robinson, if he tweeted some stuff like that?

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Mike Tsyon makes a pretty strong case IMO when he recently said in a fight with Floyd "I would be dirty. Because you'd have to do everything to fight him because he's just so good. You can't … it's impossible to fight him clean. It's almost impossible to fight him clean. You can't fight him clean. You can't fight this guy clean.”
https://www.news.com.au/sport/boxin...r/news-story/63cb56f50f2bcca637f5ceeead894898

A trainer's opinion might have more clout than a causal or diehard fan- aka : Nacho Beristain: You Can Only Beat Mayweather With A Baseball Bat
I rank him in my TOP 5 ATG based on his skill level, his assessment from his peers on his IQ ring level.
Accolades (BWAA) Fighter of the Decade is a solid argument for defending his place in history alongside multiple Ring Fighter Of the Year to ESPN FOTY bares reason to suggest he does belong in the ranks of the greatest.
Winning a major title within 2 years, ranks elite in offense and defense statistics, for 20 str8 years. Dropped one time- due to the scraping of his glove on the canvas.

Take any fighter from 1960s and previous & I'd bet with the cable, PPV, they'd fight 1 or 2 times a year as well!
As far as Who fought who argument? It is relative to one's generation, as you pointed out the biggest defense of fighters are often made by those whose fights didn't get filmed.
It's an unfair argument, to which is why I never argue against someone who claims Charlie Burley deserves to be a GOAT- But I won't make that case, what for? Benny Leonard, & previous I give respect to historians and fans on this board who preserves their legacy.

Has held & defended 3 belts simultaneously-edit.

 

At 130 lbs, Floyd is phenomenal.
At 140 lbs, H2H, Floyd is phenomenal for my money.

He is one of my favourite fighters and I actually believe you could argue him for the most complete on film - outboxing, all of the defensive moves, feet, head, reflex, technical blocking and range negotiation and he could fight in the pocket.

However, at 135 lbs and 147 lbs there are several fighters with better résumé, more power, more devastating. I think he holds his own with anyone from 130 lbs - 140/147 lbs but his record and lowered output at 147 lbs, I don't see how he lives with Ray Leonard, let alone Robinson.

I love Floyd's skillset but I don't rate him higher than Pernell overall, let alone the Durans, Charles, Armstrongs, SRR's and Peps that have plied their trade.

 

What?

 

I had Floyd winning both the Castillo and Maidana fights, though they're close.

You know Robinson has like 10 hours of footage? Guys like Charles/Moore/Armstrong/Pep have plenty too. There's loads of fighters with tons of footage. Leonard? Ali? Louis? No case for the GOAT there? I think there is, I rank every fighter I've just mentioned above Mayweather.

If you really wanna learn about some guys who look absolutely stunning on film, like some of the best to ever do it, stunning on film. Look into some of these guys:

Miguel Canto
José Napoles
Wilfredo Gomez
Éder Jofre
Carlos Ortiz
Fighting Harada
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Tony Canzoneri
Luis Rodriguez
Emile Griffith
Ernesto Marcel
Michael Spinks

There's about 45 guys who you could put here, although you've probably seen most (guys like Toney, McCallum or Jones). I've kept it to 15.

 

Excellent fair video, as usual.

 

For whatever reason, Floyd, beyond 135lbs, either missed certain fights (e.g. Margarito, Williams) or deferred fights until a time more to his liking.

Leaving a crucible of a welterweight division to cool down for 21 months is problematic for his legacy, as is his deferral of the Pacquiao bout, for 5 years, in my opinion.

His ledger would have greatly benefited from fighting both Cotto and Pacquiao at times when each of them was on fire.

 

What the **** is this??? How? What?

Okay, let's dispell this myth for a second, and look at it sensibly.

• Cocoa Kid was world level when Robinson made his debut... He was finished at world level, and fighting at weights well above his best, by 1946. Robinson hadn't even won the WW title and Cocoa wasn't even a WW anymore. That fight was never on the table. I.E: Not a duck.

• You know that Williams was retired before Robinson was a Middleweight? Not a duck.

• You know that Burley quote? Yeah the "I'm too pretty" one, can you find a source? I can't. Although I haven't looked too hard. That said, Burley lost a month before Robinson moved up to MW, then had 4 more fights and retired. Never on the table either. Maybe a duck, maybe not. Either way, unless that quote is found I'm putting it in the "Not a duck" bracket. It was never on the table either.

• Marshall was actively fighting at LHW in 1946... Robinson wasn't even at MW until 1949. By then Marshall was all but shot and would retire in 1951. Not a duck.

Similar stories with Booker/Lytell/Bivins ect. The fights didn't line up. Burley is the only one it's debatable he ducked, and even then I doubt it. The MWs that Robinson was fighting in the mid 40s, with LaMotta being the exception, were small MWs and keep busy fights. He wasn't actively fighting the best Middleweight contenders until he was a Middleweight, and by that point the BMR had moved on.

You're taking a boxers word as gospel? Someone who's easy work beat people who beat Marshall... Take things with a grain of salt.

You got a source for the last bit? That's interesting, I've never heard that before.

 

You're wrong and rewritting history. Burley had been robbed for the WW title and the only reason he wasn't at WW was because Zivic's management bought Burley's contract out effectively blocking him from fighting at WW, hence he fought MWs

Promoters wanted to make the fight and put them on the same card against tomato cans as a build up. Burley wanted to outdo Robinson and the result was Robinson doubling his purse demand and walking out on the fight. Robinson reportedly said 'I'm too pretty to face Charles Burley'. Robinson turned down a career high payday to face Burley.

Burley would of come down to welterweight too.

" I have to admit, I have my doubts I could have licked him during my prime years".

Ray Robinson.

"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."

Charles Burley

 

Nah, Toney was way better defensively.

Has never been stopped as a pro, and he turned over in the 80’s!!!!

Went from MW to HW and never got stopped.

And he’s a defensive fighter first.

 

Also, Floyd never fought an ATG in their prime at their optimal weight class.

I mean, the man turned pro in 1996!

So, the 90’s, 00’s, 10’s and now, over a 50+ fight career spanning something like FIVE divisions, yet he hasn’t beaten one?

That tells you all you need to know, imho.

 

No Toney wasn't better defensively because he got hit far more frequently and lost more rounds. Poor stamina and a lack of movement didn't help that

 

He went up to HW against dangerous punches as basically a fat MW.

His chin held up for like 4-5 decades as a pro. GTFO!