What's the best argument against FMJ being the greatest?

Alvarez, Corrales, Hatton and Castillo were all prime in their optimal weight class. Cotto was pretty much prime in his ideal weight class. Depends what you consider 'ATG' though

Pacquaio was at his best weight class and both had faded the same amount

 

He got hit more, lost more fights and lost more rounds and now is punch drunk slurring his speech. And you think he has a better defence than Floyd?

 

No. Just no.

Canelo was drained.

Corrales had to drop 18lbs.

Hatton was at his best at 140, not 147.

Manny’s Best was 130 and below.

 

Dude, he’s never been stopped since the 80’s.

James took most of his damage sparring every day.

Maidana and Cotto found Floyd no problem.

 

Corrales always dropped 17lbs, he was 130lb champ, he weight drained to gain a size advantage. Most boxers weight drain to gain a size advantage. Corrales was favourite and destroying all comers at 130

The hilarious thing is Hatton drained 15+ lbs to make 140lbs. He weighed 155lbs on fight night for his 140lb defenses. Yet Mayweather in not draining him, as Corrales choose to do at 130, is not fighting him in optimal weight class

Pacquaio seemingly performed better at 140+ and was rehydrating to 138-140 when he weighed 130lbs. Again he's fighting at a weight class where he doesn't need to drain.

Alvarez was a catch weight, but it was 2lbs below the weight of the division Alvarez was a champion in. So not allot in it against a much bigger man.

 

You keep saying this, but neither has Floyd and Floyd lost way less rounds

Why do you think Toney has so many losses and controversial decisions. Reggie Johnson, Tiberie and McCallum were all controversial. If I remember rightly Sam Peter actually outboxed him. He lost to Griffin twice and Thadzi.

 

Welterweight Pacquiao is the best Pacquiao? Furthermore, a one armed WW Pacquiao is the best Pacquiao.

 

Was 50 000 really a career high purse? And would the fight have been a 147 lbs? Few, if any, of Robinson's non-title fights had that limit.

And have we heard what reasons Ray gave for not accepting the offer?

Anyhow, I don't think WW contenders are obligated to face MW contenders.

And that Burley was ducked when he was a WW contender was hardly Ray's fault.

 

A welterweight Pacquaio isn't drained to **** like he was at the lower weights. It clearly benefited him moving to 140 against Hatton.

 

Prime Pacquiao wasn't drained... He was naturally 130/135.

 

Yes 50k was career high. He took 25k to fight Lamotta instead. Some interesting sourcing of the history of Burley being avoided, unfortunately the newspaper links have expired but it's all referenced if you can find the original newspapers:

Sept. 1936 turned pro aged 19 years exactly.


January 27th 1939 {The Pittsburgh Press}
Charley Burley, unbeaten in 8 starts but shunned by promoters for some peculiar reason
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 12,4407034


June 14th 1938 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Sure I'll fight Henry Armstrong, I'll fight anyone" claims Burley after beating Zivic, which he did beyond question. Burley showed what it takes to fight Armstong. "Zivic used his roughhouse techniques, gouging, heeling, thumbing and wrestling until the crown booed him loudly"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 53,2422718


January 28th 1939 {The Afro American} Welterweight 'sensation' Charley Burley rise has been sensational. He has blasted his way through the ranks. Ring Magazine ranks him 3rd to Armstrong.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2[/url] ... 055,416530


May 11th 1939 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Chappie Bernstein, Burleys manager issued a writ. Fritizie Zivic got the worst beating of his career by Burley. "I cannot understand why Zivic is being lined up as a challenger to Henry Armstrong" Burley has all the skills to beat Armstrong. The WBA think so too and have ranked Burley number one challenger to Armstrong's welterweight title. Charles Burley has always given his best, never been in a bad fight, has won all his fights on his own merit and has yet to be censored for foul fighting. Its about time the local boxing scribes got behind a lad who is a credit to his profession. He is willing to meet any or all claimants for the chance to fight Armstrong. We don't go around the country fighting pushovers and setups to bolster our claim for the crack at the welterweight crown. Do Luke Carney (Zivics manager) and Zivic feel the same?"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 18,3990339


Between 03/09/1940 and 25/05/1942 (1 year and 8 months) Burley goes 20-0 (15 KOs)


February 11th 1940 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Charley Burley has had more chances than a 'fellow at a bingo game'. He beat Zivic twice and won near top rating among the welterweights. He beat Soose and began to look like there was a place for him as a middleweight contender"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 899,994319


October 29th 1940 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} "If Burley got his rightful chance at the middleweight crown..."
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 13,1274899


May 6th 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette}. In just 4 years as a pro, white fighter Billy Soose has earned his title shot against fellow white fighter Ken Overlin as there are enough good stuff on his record. Burley beat Soose (WUD 10) and looked so good Soose was lucky to last past 5 rounds.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 52,4019192


July 16th 1941 {The Pittsburgh Press}. "Word about town is welterweight champion Fritzie Zivic is Burleys manager or at least holds a sizeable chunk of his contract"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 83,2663001


December 21st 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin writes that Burley is rapidly becoming a favourite in Minneapolis after two wins, he plans to put him in against a nationally known fighter after the first of the year.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 13,1178934


Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942) - As early as January 1942 a cartoon in local newspaper shows Sugar Ray Robinson (top contender), Fritzie Zivic (white former champ who beat Armstrong for title, still top contender and now "owns" Burleys contract. Zivic fought SRR twice on October 31st 1941 and January 16th 1942), white Freddie 'Red' Cochrane (welterweight champ who beat Zivic for title) and white Young Kid McCoy (contender) diving through the ropes to avoid Burley.
Image


January 2nd 1942 {Times Daily} article. Burley offers challenge to welterweight champ Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. Burley offered to donate his winnings to charity. "I'll even pay my own training expenses" said Burley.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 868,217662


February 1st 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Article about Zivic, he states "Tommy O'Loughlin is after me fighting Burley in Minneapolis and to think I once owned Burleys contract"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 41,2898981


February 7th 1942 {The Milwaukee Journal} Burley issues a new challenge to middleweight champ Tony Zale.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 42,2695465


March 13th 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Loughlin (Burleys manager) wired Johnny Bay a $7,500 offer to fight recent heavyweight title challenger Billy Conn. Conns manager Bay wired back "make it $12,500 and you can fight welterweight Johnny Red Cregan" (Cregan only a journeyman!!). That night the 5'9" 151lb Burley gave away 69lbs (4st 9lbs) and 6" in height when he fought 6'3" 220lb heavyweight Jay D. Turner, but battered him anyway. Turner refusing to come out for the 7th round. The 6'1.5" 183lb Billy Conn fought Turner two months previous and beat Turner on points over 10 rounds.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 30,6306850


April 21st 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin who is now handling Burley states he is still looking for a Burley-Zivic fight. If not Burley is willing to "fight anyone regardless of size and class"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 90,5264998


May 5th 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley set to fight Robinson in 1942
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 08,2141954


Between 11/12/1942 and 17/02/1947 (4 years and 2 months) Burley goes 23(12 KOs)-1-1 with 1 NC


August 4th 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Maurice Slutsky, Burleys new manager looking forward to matching Burley and Robinson. Getting matches is hard because of his capabilities and unwillingness to do tank jobs. Burleys manager said Burley would do very well against the Sugar man. Burley will be kept busy with tune up fights to prepare him for the test if it comes from Robinson.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 803,249877


August 12th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Just ask "Who wants to fight Charley Burley" and every named middleweight within hearing distance does not walk, but runs to the nearest exit
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 27,4190768


August 17th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley said "I'd fight Robinson for nothing, he can have my purse".
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 83,5618807


August 22nd 1945 article {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR wants $50,000 not the $25,000 offered by Burleys team. Instead SRR will fight the heavier LaMotta for a $25,000 purse.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 62,3804785


August 23rd 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR team are "demanding $50,000" to fight Burley (a fighter without a title). The author claiming "Robinson fears him and wants no part of him under any circumstances"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 15,3620812


December 12th 1945 {The Milwaukee Journal} Promotor Art Rooney offers SRR $20,000 to fight Burley. "Thats one we'd like to see"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 21,5389108


January 13th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} States "Robinson has refused time and time again to fight the clever Burley"
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 54,3554843


February 26th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} The Rooney-McGinley company have wired $7,500 to Jimmy Johnston for Burley to fight Archie Moore again. Johnston replied saying they want $15,000.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 72,5719554


March 6th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Robinson talking about possible opponents and didn't know who to fight in Pittsburgh after beating Sammy Angott. Jake LaMotta, Beau Jack, Charley Burley and Marty Greco were mentioned as possible opponents. It was said Charley Burley would draw a tremendous throng but SRRs handlers demur (reluctance) when the Pittsburgh fighter is mentioned. SRR team turned down a $25,000 offer in 1945 to fight Burley. SRR earned $12,500 against Angott.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 45,4485876


March 14th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Charley Burley who is so good he "scares off" the better named fighters is in action tonight.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 58,3011858


July 16th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley one of the best middleweights is rated 2nd by Ring Magazine and the National Boxing Association ranks him the outstanding challenger for Tony Zale's title
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 49,4325836


October 3rd 1946 {The Milwaukee Journal} Jersey Jones has teamed up with Lew Burston to pilot the worlds best middleweight Charley Burley. Jones said when Burley saw the recent Zale-Graziano fracas he asked 'how long do you think it will take us to get him?' (meaning Zale)
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 10,1275079

 

October 30th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley's ugly ducking of the middleweight division was officially today declared as the contender who might stop the rich middleweight division from being wrapped up for 18 months. Abe Green (President of the North Boxing Assoc) named Burley, who none of the middleweights want to fight, who might prevent the title wrap up. He urges a Burley bout and proposes Marcel Cerdan-Georgie Abrams meets the winner of a Burley-LaMotta fight for the right of a title shot. Burley managed by Lew Burston and Jersey Jones
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 468,217047


November 9th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley Pittsburgh middleweight made a bid for a crack for the winner of the championship bout between Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano by posting a $2,000 forfeit check with the New York State Boxing Commission
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 41,4091670


December 17th 1946 {The Miami News} IBHOF member Jersey Jones (former fighter, promoter, manager, newspaper reporter, magazine writer and corner man). Stating that Burley is the best middleweight in the world and avoided by all. Says LaMotta refused a $20,000 guarantee to fight him.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2[/url] ... 024,820315


From August 1946 to his retirement in July 1950 (4 years) Burley only fought 8 times (6-2) such was the lack of opposition. His last bout was in Peru. He won his last 4 bouts. Prior to this 4 years of relative inactivity Burley fought from 1938-1946 where he had 90 bouts (averaging 10 a year)


January 3rd 1947 {Prescott Evening Courier} Jersey Jones moaning because Nat Roger, Mike Jacobs matchmaker hasn't even tried to bring Jake LaMotta and Churley Burley together while he's running the 'St Nicks Shows' in the Garden
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8[/url] ... 346,119210


January 11th 1947 {The Afro American} Ring Magazine middleweight rankings.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2[/url] ... 11,1035901
Champ: Tony Zale (white) - fought Graziano (x3), Abrams and Cerdan
1. Jack LaMotta (white) got title shot (fought SRR six times in 1942, 1943 (x2), 1945 (x2) and 1951)
2. Charley Burley (black) NO SHOT
3. Rocky Graziano (white) got title shot (fought SRR on April 16th 1952)
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot (beat Zale for title and defended against LaMotta)
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot (fought SRR on May 16th 1947 and many thought beat him, loud boos from crowd). Abrams drew with Burley but many thought Burley won.
6. Bert Lytell (black) NO SHOT (went 1-1 with Burley and lost highly disputed decision to LaMotta in 1945)
7. Steve Belloise (white) NO SHOT lost middleweight eliminator fight to SRR on August 24th 1949
8. Artie Levine (white) NO SHOT lost to SRR on November 6th 1946 but almost knocked him out



February 13th 1947 {Reading Eagle} Marcel Cerdan and Jake LaMotta must be given their chance against Zale. Jersey Jones says Burley would slash his way through the entire list without any problem.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1[/url] ... 72,3631945

 

No he wasn't. He was 136 against Barrera 1 and 140 in the Morales rematch. Go and look up the HBO broadcasts if you don't believe me.

 

So him rehydrating 10lbs is bad? He was better at 130 and fought better competition... He's a naturally 130-140. Y'know... NOT A WELTERWEIGHT.

This is still here... Care to explain your opinions?