What's the best argument against FMJ being the greatest?

I am yet to see any evidence that Burley was capable of pulling in big crowds. As great as he was at boxing, had Burley been cultivated to be a draw? Was he an established headliner - anywhere?

If not, one had to wonder whether the big money offers were very wishful thinking. In reality, what kind of financial risk did a headline event with Burley present?

 

This question wasn't aimed at me, but I don't quite understand it. Of course fighters drain because it's an advantage to be bigger in the ring. They certainly don't shed 15-20 lbs of water because it's fun.

 

No. He was genuinely disliked, and compared to Zivic he was often dismissed and blackballed. He was the epitome of high risk-low reward.

 

Did you mean: High-Risk; Low-Reward?

 

Yes.

 

Floyd can't break into break into the top 5 in the lightweight division' Duran, Benny Leonard Joe Gans, Ike Williams are all ahead of him,, much less the all-time pound for pound ratings

 

Thought so

To my mind, it's no mystery why Robinson never fought Burley. Bad timing, coinciding with some poor form on occasion (from Burley), combined with the lack of pulling power of Burley and the idea of a bout between them becomes quite unrealistic.

 

I also don't see what Burley fans/Robinson detractors point is. It's not like anyone actually picks Burley to win vs Robinson.

 

It seems he was offered good money for a fight with Burley (25 k), the same he got for LaMotta. That he wanted the double shows how much respect he had for Burley.

"Duck" isn't the word I use when it comes to contenders in different weight classes, though.

 

That's a fair viewpoint. In my opinion, once you get to the 30s era and beyond (except for heavyweights), ruleset changes have more to do with the 'evolution' of Boxing skill rather than the teaching, which you could write pages on, such as glove changes, scoring systems, accepted fouls etc.

Lot's of these old school guys have film on them now to check out, some even have a wealth of footage, most on youtube. I'd suggest digging the old threads of this very forum as well. There's a lot of buried knowledge here.

That second point is definitely very true. I wouldn't even know, or have seen, half of what I know if it wasn't for the internet and the curators of said material.

 

Yes - there does seem to be a few stories about offers, counter-offers and such like but, by themselves, they don't convince me that a fight was actually viable, from a financial perspective. I mean, which promoter made the offer to whom?

Which venue was going to take the risk of putting that show on? Was there genuine public interest? Because, the impression I get when looking into this is that, amongst the paying public, Burley might as well have been in witness protection.

From my perspective, offering a sum of money and being able to actually pay up on that offer (which includes paying all other parties involved, as well), when your man has never really converted much in the way of gate receipts before, are two different things.

Well - yes - there's that element, as well, which adds to the curiosity of the idea that Burley was avoided by Robinson.

Still - it never seems to go away, this one...

 

There is no doubt he was a great fighter but what do you mean ? Greatest P4P of all time ? Greatest welterweight of all time ?

 

Floyd can be rated extremely highly on a H2H basis.

Floyd can be considered the GOAT on a H2H basis.

If someone told me that, I wouldn't give them much of an argument. But under traditional criteria, he doesn't have the resume to be rated as the GOAT.

He never beat an ATG whilst they were prime. That's not to say he couldn't have of course. But he didn't.

Floyd's biggest issue is that he was too fixated on his zero.

Although he was one of the greatest fighters who's ever lived, he wasn't as confident as he should have been. Now some people may laugh at that, as everybody knows Floyd for his supreme confidence and his arrogance. But his decision making over his career paints a different picture. He simply wasn't as confident as what he should have been.

Look at some of his antics throughout the years:


He retired when the WW was hotting up.

He deliberately came in overweight against Marquez.

He forced an unnecessary C-W on Canelo, despite it being a title fight, despite him having fought Oscar at 154, and despite him saying beforehand that he didn't care what Canelo rehydrated to.

He sucker punched Ortiz, which was unnecessary after he'd already accepted his apology.

He wouldn't fight Manny until Marquez had iced him. And that was a long time after Manny had publicly agreed to give into all of Floyd's demands.

He wouldn't let Maidana wear his choice of gloves.

He was caught with an IV before the fight with Manny.


Floyd didn't need to do any of those things.

He could have beaten a prime version of Cotto.

He could have beaten a prime version of Manny.

He could easily have beaten Canelo without a C-W.

He simply didn't have the belief in himself that he should have done. And his actions have cost him a better resume and a higher ATG ranking.

 

Harry had 200 fights, fighting LHW's and HW's.

Him and Floyd were of a similar size.

Give that some thought.

He even gave Jack Dempsey a hard time in sparring.

It's amazing. And towards the end of his career, he only had one healthy eye.

Look into his career when you've got some spare time on your hands.

 

He beat both of those guys with ease, but I get your point.

Styles make fights.

A great adage that can never be overlooked.