What's the best argument against FMJ being the greatest?

Lets be honest. Put Ray Leonard in with say Madinia and Ray stops him in what 8 rounds at the most?
Zab would go maybe 6. JMM would have been massacred beyond belief. Baldimore would have been target practice for MAYBE 7 rounds.

 

They were potential fights that didn't come off, for whatever reason. It's not a criticism. It's an observation.

Mayweather's win against Oscar was better than all of Cotto's victories at 154 put together. Taking the perspective that Mayweather was the one at a disadvantage here is a bit of a reach.

I'm not sure why you're arguing this point in the way that you are. Let me remind you that what I suggested pointed to the view that a Mayweather/Cotto bout would have been better in 2008, at 147, than their actual bout, made 4 years later in a division, Cotto had hardly made an impression in.

I don't see why this would be considered unreasonable.

And, just what sort of health/condition/form do you think Yuri Foreman, Mayorga and Margarito were in, when Cotto fought them?

As for Cotto's efforts at Middleweight: Martinez was 39 years old when they met and had been showing clear signs that he was slipping for over two years prior. Was Geale at the top of his game, at aged 34, in the penultimate fight of his career? And, Canelo beat Cotto comprehensively.

Not to mention that not one of these so-called Middleweight bouts was fought at the Middleweight limit. Martinez at 159; Geale at 157 and Canelo at 155 (for which Cotto weighed in at 153). To my mind, this run made a bit of a mockery of the Lineal Middleweight Championship and Cotto, in effect, was a lineal Catchweight Champion who lost his Catchweight Championship to Alvarez, who then continued the catchweight tradition, stating he wasn't ready for 160, before vacating the title.

So, Cotto beat two guys at the end of the road and was beaten soundly by a prime 155lb opponent. This is all half-decent stuff, but I fail to see how it adds to your case, when it doesn't really speak to Cotto not having been a better match for Mayweather back in 2008, when he would have been in his athletic, 147lb prime, at a time before he suffered two severe beatings.

Yes there is - for the reasons, previously stated and those above.

Floyd did not handle him easily, at all. If you can't recall the scores belying how close the rounds were, I would suggest you watch the fight again.

I didn't say he wasn't undefeated, did I?

And you do realize that age doesn't necessarily serve as the perfect measure of ring age and ring wear; that there isn't precise consistency from one boxer to the next on this front? Hatton, going into his 44th bout, with his lifestyle and extreme training regimes, as well as a fighting style not conducive to longevity, was bound to burn out sooner rather than later.

Hatton was still 29 (and with only one defeat), when he ran into trouble against a fading former lightweight, Juan Lazcano, and needed every bit of help the referee gave him in the tenth round.

This is a simplistic way of looking at things. There is such a thing as a boxer's ideal fighting weight. 147 was not Hatton's, as had already been seen.

Making out Mayweather was the midget here is also kinda funny, given that he was taller, had the longer reach and had been fighting above the 140 limit consistently for over 2 years in 4 high-level bouts, compared to Hatton's one lucky escape, sandwiched in between his Light Welterweight career.

No assumption necessary. Everything discussed above was more than apparent, at the time.

 

I agree. Leonard was terrific. Very underrated puncher.

Head-to-head, I'd take Leonard over most people who ever fought in that division.

But his career was too abbreviated to be rated the best ever based on anything other than I just like him head-to-head. And Ray's end-of-career losses were pretty embarrassing ... especially against Camacho. That's something that never happened to Mayweather.

 

Benitez,Duran,Hearns,Hagler,Kalue- all victories.
Put Mayweathers top 5 wins vs Leonards and see how they stack up.

 

1. was it Floyd’s? You are aware that he began his career about three divisions beneath welter and was already a p4p great before he ever even ascended there.... and btw pac has frequented welter longer than Floyd at this point.

2. okay first of all, Mayweather fought Marquez after being off for TWO years. Why is it that the disadvantages of Floyd’s opponents are always capitalized while his own go ignored ? Secondly pac and Marquez were the best of the division. Pac beat Keith Thurman and Tim Bradley AFTER fighting Floyd and is STILL one of the top welters or should we brush that one under the carpet too?

3. I don’t care what the betting odds were and I remember plenty of people on this forum and others picking him to win.. naturally when he got schooled, out came the excuses like a red carpet. Canelo was 42-0, holding two belts and a linear champion... Floyd was moving up in weight and 37 years of age but of course I’m seeing the pattern that such things need not be considered.. ask yourself if Hagler, Leonard or Robinson had any such wins under such circumstances at that age. As for your claim that Alvarez still isn’t that good, well I think the boxing world disagrees with you as most have him #1 p4p.

4. Utter tripe... Foreman proved himself a great fighter in two separate careers decades apart. And like I said before, anytime a fighter looses the excuse can be made that he was “ Taylor made “ for the victor. Mayweather best fighters of ALL styles.

5. I think it says Mayweather’s comp was pretty awesome. He beat the best of multiple eras spanning 20 years and has scalps over several hall of famers or future hall of famers... he achieved this by moving up through several divisions and fighting to an age where most greats were long retired.... Oops !!! Forgot I shouldn’t mention that.. Oh and Mayweather never lost despite these things

 

Kalule is one of Leonard's top five wins?

Kalule was just an alphabet champ who lost to Davey Moore AND McCallum the following year. He wasn't even the best junior middleweight champ when Leonard fought him, and there were only two orgs back then.

Manny Pacquio is an eight-division champ (and still has a title). Oscar De La Hoya was a six-division champ. Canelo Alvarez is a four-division champ (and still has a title). Miguel Cotto was a four-division champ. Juan Manuel Marquez was a four-division champ. Shane Mosley was a three-division champ. Diego Corrales was a two-division champ. Zab Judah was a two-division champ. Ricky Hatton was a two-division champ. Marcos Maidana was a two-division champ. Arturo Gatti was a two-division champ. Robert Guerrero was a two-division champ. Jesus Chavez was a two-division champ. Jose Luis Castillo was a two-time Lightweight champ. Gernaro Hernandez was a two-time super featherweight champ. Andre Berto was a two-time welterweight champ. Sharmba Mitchell was a two-time champ. Carlos Baldomir was the World Welterweight champ. Victor Ortiz was an alphabet beltholder. So was Demarcus Corley. Gregorio Vargas was a former alphabet beltholder. Angel Manfredy and Philip N'dou were WBU champs, which was "a thing" for a while, depending on where you lived.

Take your pick. And Mayweather beat all of them.

Ayube Kalule?

 

Yes Mayweather tried to make his first fight at 140 against Hatton and talked about getting revenge for his uncle against Tyszu saying Tyszu beat up an old Rodger and now it was his turn to beat up an old Tyszu. However he was contracted to HBO, where as Hatton and Tyszu were contracted to Showtime. Tyszu was looking for the highest payday after Mitchell and Hatton's huge crowds he was drawing in Manchester provided that. Vivian Harris was WBA titlist and managed to price himself out of fights with Hatton, Mayweather and someone I forget. Freitas turned down 2m for a Mayweather fight in 2005. Mayweather was also talking about fighting Spinks before Spinks lost to Judah and was talking about facing Winky Wright in 2005

Casamayor turned down the Mayweather fight before he faced Freitas and then controversially lost so it wasn't the same sell. Freitas didn't want to fight Mayweather.

Also during this period Mayweather had bad hand injuries and he broke his hand in 2001 against Hernandez. Also until 2005 when Mayweather went PPV, it was harder to get 2 A sides on the same card

 

You've made some good points.

People are too hard on Floyd sometimes, myself included.

It's just his attitude and his decision making that left a sour taste.

I know guys like Ray were divas, but Floyd did things which were just completely unnecessary, which prevented him from receiving full credit. He devalued his own wins. The Canelo win was a prime example. The fight was a JMW unification, he'd beaten Oscar at the weight, and he'd said that he didn't care what Canelo rehydrated to. So then why force the C-W. He could have beaten Canelo just as easy no matter what Canelo had weighed. And the heavier Canelo was, the more credit he'd have received. Personally, I don't believe for one second that the weight affected Canelo's performance. But Floyd's actions gave people the opportunity to discredit the win by claiming that Canelo was drained etc.

I'll just mention a few other points from your post:

The Marquez performance was fantastic. But like the Canelo fight, his actions devalued it in many people's eyes.

Although I can see your point regarding Ray's win over Benitez, Cotto had been beaten hard in 2 fights, and he only beat Martinez because he was shot with his knees. In my mind, Cotto will never be classed as a legit MW champ. So the Benitez win was definitely greater. I don't even class the Cotto win as being great.

Regarding Ray-Hagler, Of course, Hagler was faded. But then Ray hadn't fought in over 3 years, he'd never fought at MW before, and he'd looked poor in his fight with Howard.

IMHO, Floyd's win over Oscar is one of his best wins. It might even be his best win. He was completely outsized in terms of height, reach and weight, and Oscar was still a great fighter. I think the win gets devalued due to how Oscar seemed to fade quickly afterwards. He looked poor against Forbes, and although Manny was great, his tank was empty at that point.

Good post.

 

Great post.

 

Kalule was a good fighter.

He was as good as many of the fighters you've listed.

Their resumes are very different.

Ray has the better singular wins, but Floyd has the depth.

 

I agree Cotto was beaten badly by Pac and Margarito, but Benitez also appeared to be beaten by Bruce Curry arguably twice - and was floored three times in the first fight and badly hurt in the rematch. The ROUNDS system in New York was the only thing that saved him.

And Bruce Curry wasn't exactly Manny Pac or Margarito.

Also, Benitez did just turn 21 when Leonard fought him. And Benitez did appear to peak later at 154, where he beat Duran easily and demolished Maurice Hope. Benitez was a phenom. But he just edged (deservedly so) Cervantes and Palomino. And didn't really string together many defenses at 140 or 147.

Cotto was a longtime champ in three division and had many solid wins - including over guys like Mosley and Judah - and he even avenged his loss to Margarito before he fought Floyd.

And I disagree, Cotto became the "real" middleweight champ after fighting Floyd, regardless of Martinez's problems.

Cotto will be in the Hall of Fame. That's a given.

Much like Mayweather and Leonard, Cotto had the deeper resume but Benitez had more talent.

 

Cotto looked really good against Margarito (rematch), Martinez and Geale. I don't remember anyone at the time thinking that Cotto would beat Martinez, but after he one-sidedly did so the win is hardly counted. And he beat Geale almost as easily as GGG did.

Also, it's conveniently forgotten that Floyd was the older guy. Even the weight is supposed to be in his favour even though Cotto was the defending champion at the weight and bigger in the ring.

 

Heres what you missed;
Leonard vs Hearns BOTH were unbeaten and in their PRIMES. Nobody had been brutally knocked out.
Not in their late thirties but in their YOUTH.
Benitez vs Leonard- Again BOTH UNBEATEN. Both YOUNG.
Kalue was an unbeaten Champion who years latter would hand a loss on KALAMBAY.
And if you watched his bout with Moore he actually gave a good account of himself.
And losing to a PRIME YOUNG Mccallum isnt a disgrace because lets be honest Mike is a better fighter then anyone Mayweather EVER faced.

 

Ask yourself this honest question: what Mayweather opponent could have beaten a prime Hearns or Benitez at either welter or jr.middle? Hatton? Mosley? De La Hoya?

 

Martinez was done when he was in that ring with Cotto- you cant sit here and tell me Martinez had full use of his legs in that bout.