Would a prime Mike Tyson be as dominate as he was if he had boxed in the 1970`s?

That is a murderer's row of KO victims right there. Prime Shavers, who was stopped in one round by the monstrous puncher Quarry; Ramos, whom Lyle didn't actually KO; Johnson, who was stopped in two by the incomparable Juergen Blin; and Kirkman, who fell to ATG Al Jones. Mathis was a good win for Lyle but there's no footage of the KO (to my knowledge) to analyze. Sorry, but I'm not convinced any of these wins were as devastating as Ruddock-Dokes or Ruddock-Smith. Dokes wasn't near his peak but he was only a year removed from giving Evander Holyfield a good fight, and Smith only a couple years from his signature win against Witherspoon. It's not like these guys were walking corpses.

Whatever, though. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's clear we're not convincing one another, so it's useless to keep arguing.

 

Yeah, keep believing that Bruno had no power. A ridiculous statement, I must say. He was arguably the only guy to hurt a prime Oliver McCall. McCall, in case you didn't know, had one of the greatest chins in boxing history.

Yes, Ali wobbled Joe in the second round of their second fight. Ali followed up with barrage of punches and Frazier was saved by referee Tony Perez who ended the round early. Watch the fight and you'll see.

And I never said Quarry or Mathis had Joe in trouble. I implied that both had success landing on Joe, especially in the early rounds. Please try to comprehend my arguments. You've put words in my mouth several times and it's quite annoying.

Tucker did hurt Tyson with an uppercut but to say he almost had him knocked out is a bit silly. Tyson recovered rather quickly and dominated the remainder of the fight. It was a good win for Tyson, as Tucker was a formidable contender in those days.

I think I'm done with this conversation. I've laid out my opinions and I don't see them changing. It was fun, though.

 

It's a good opinion, too. It takes a hell of a lot of heart to get up and win after being knocked down. But imo it takes even more to keep on going when you know you're getting whupped and that all that is going to happen is that you will keep getting whupped. Tyson showed that in spades against Douglas (who else tries to put a mouthpiece back in to get back up and take that kind of punishment?), Holyfield and Lewis.

I think you could make a far greater case that Foreman lacked heart in the 70s. He sat down and watched the referee count to ten in Zaire. Yes, he was spent. Was he as spent as the Tyson whose eye was swollen shut after a one sided beating in Tokyo, though? One post gives Ken Norton credit for his heart - which I don't have a problem with - but he hasn't got that 'grappling for his mouthpiece' moment where he was desperate to get up and resume getting his head kicked in. Don't credit Kenny's heart while overlooking Tyson's.

For me, the 70s needs a bit of a reality check. It was dominated by a brilliant fighter but one who had lost much of what made him brilliant - his blinding speed. Yes, he got to prove his immense heart and durability and guile but how strong can an era really be when it is dominated by a man with average power, little in the way of infighting skills other than holding necks and leaning down and a punch arsenal that didn't extend that much beyond a one two and a cuffing left hook (the Bonavena KO notwithstanding)? I love Ali but I think I have fallen for a bit of the smoke and mirrors that categorised his displays in the 70s. It was style over substance at times and his charisma elevates the era beyond what the talent pool would have otherwise achieved.

I also get your view that Foreman v Tyson is hardly the walk in the park for Foreman it is made out to be. Put a 20 year old Tyson in Kingston in 1973. Is it inconceivable that he too could have bounced an out of shape, overconfident, slow starting, one-armed, one-eyed Frazier around? Bonavena nearly managed that to an in shape version and Tyson was a far better fighter than Oscar.

Is it inconceivable that Norton doesn't get out of the second once Tyson forces him back? Does Tyson fight the one dimensional 'swing for the bleachers' fight George did vs Ali? Put the Tyson who beat Berbick in the same time frame as Foreman in Kingston and I don't think his reign is any less impressive. More so, actually, as I don't see him performing as badly as Foreman did vs Ali.

I don't expect this to get much support but I honestly don't think I have stated an opinion without backing it up. I'll stand my corner and debate it too - let's face it, I haven't got much else to do atm - but won't bother with responses like Foreman would have decapitated him, broken him in two etc. As I've said, I feel the 70s had enough unsubstantiated hyperbole without adding to it five decades later.

 

Great post, and I totally agree with you about the '70s. A good decade no doubt, but one looked upon with rose-colored glasses by many boxing scribes.

 

Foreman would make your hero Tyson cry like a baby

 

I can see where your coming from regarding then 70s. I agree that Tyson is a dangerous night for anyone at his short peak. He probably beats Frazier and Norton, Lyle, Quarry Shavers.
Foreman? Tough call. Used to think George would certainly win but that view has shifted to more like 50/50.

I think you might have been a shade too hard on 1970s Ali though. He had lost some quickness of foot but his hands were still blinding fast up to bout 1975. What heavyweight had better speed? Couple that with the greatest chin/recovery powers and he is gonna dominate alot of eras.

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Ali was never faster than this....1972 performance.

 

He was still quick but no way was he as quick as he was pre-exile for mine. On another note how versatile and powerful did his left hook look in your video? Have a look at the lead left uppercut at 1.05.

 

His left dominated JQ. Also the jab was the best I can recall seeing of any fighter.
His hands looked about the same to me in speed. He was rattling Quarry with effortless ease. Jerry had above average hands himself.

His overall movement footwork was where the real dropoff shows. Even with that it's better than anyone else I can think of. When in top form (early 70s). Ali was a pinch heavier by then perhaps a bit stronger. He certainly couldn't sustain that bounce like he did in his youth.

 

From which hole in the ground crawled out that fellow ?

Thats why Tyson continued to attack milliseconds after that uppercut ? Have you seen that fight?

 

I actually meant to put this video up in my first post -

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Ali seemed to be pissed off at that fella. That wasnt his usual shoeshine, he wanted to put that cat down.

 

No argument from me!!! He was unleashing.

 

Foreman beats Tyson. I remember an interview where mike was asked about 3 fantasy fights against past legends, his answers were the next:
Against Ali: " ALI WINS"
Against Joe Louis " I WIN"
Against Foreman "mmm that might be close"

If even Mike was not sure it says al ot about it

 

Yep I remember that. He didn´t hesitate to put himself over Louis.

 

Exactly