Barrera Analyzes Morales Vs. Marquez; Gives His Pick...!!!

Where do you get this nonsense that Marquez cant fight off the front foot?
Here's a list of fighters Marquez did very well against taking the fight to a fighter who was retreating.

Manuel Mantecas Medina- Dominated Medina

Derrick Smoke Gainer- ran aroung the ring the whole 7 rounds not wanting any of Marquez combination punching
Marquez dominated the 7 rounds against a fighter that didn't want to engage.

Chris John- Another fighter like Gainer that wanted to be slick and not do offensive work
Had this fight been fought anywhere but in John's backyard of Indonesia, Marquez would have won wide on the cards.

Marco Antonio Barrera- Please don't come with this nonsense that MAB was done at this point. He wasn't in his prime but neither was Marquez and Marquez came out of it winning wide on the cards against a Barrera that tried to circle Marquez and box off the jab.
Marquez was made to chase in this fight and he was nailing MAB with right hands over his jab.

Joel Casamayor- Against a slick mover that has way more tricks up his sleeve than Morales, this was a technical fight to begin with and Marquez taking the fight to Casamayor. Knockout!!!!


Do you want to hold the Mayweather fight against Marquez who was going up two weight divisions past where he'd never been.
Imo Mayweather is the only fighter that nullified Marquez' offensive output and he was able to do it because he was bigger, stronger, quicker, and faster. There wasn't one single physical category that Marquez was on par or had an edge on Mayweather at 147 lbs.
Morales my friend would not hold such advantages.

Tim Bradley- We're talking a 40 year old Marquez against a much younger Tim Bradley, and guess what? Marquez acclimated himself to
the retreating Bradley was uncharacteristically doing and he got the better of Bradley in the second half of the fight, so much so tha imo Marquez edged Bradley in the fight.

I have one more for you that might shock you...……….
Manny Pacquiao? Check out the first several rounds of the 3rd Marquez-Pacquiao fight. Freddie Roach sent Pacquiao out to box.
Pacquiao wasn't coming forward. Because Pacquiao is quicker and faster he was making Marquez lead, and lead Marquez did, shooting straight jabs at Pacquiao's midsection where Pacquiao was being baited with those jabs to counter. Well Pacquiao would counter, but guess what?????? Marquez would counter that counter with shots that were snapping Pacquiao's head back.
We've seen Pacquiao with his swift footwork outbox the likes of DLH, Margarito, Rios, and recently Thurman, but he just couldn't make his boxing skills work for him vs Marquez despite being quicker of both hand and footspeed, both categories that Morales does not come close to in comparison to Pacquiao's hand and foot speed.

This is how I see a Marquez-Morales fight playing out. I see a tactical battle for the first 3 or 4 rounds playing out with both having their moments. Morales having his moments with his strong jab, but Marquez as well using his better hand speed to counter Morales slower longer punches.
The one thing you need to keep in mind Tinman is that Marquez is very good with his head and waist movements. When Marquez gets hit with a clean hard shots, very rarely does a second shot land right away because he's just so aware of whats in front of him.
At some point before the mid rounds start a fight it going to break out just like it did in the MAB fights. For as much as it would benefit to keep the fight at center ring and purely box from a distance, he just cant do it over the long haul of a fight.
1. He is ego driven and he's MEXICAN, he comes to FIGHT!!!!
The one thing I applaud Morales for is that whether he boxes or brawls, he entertains and he's there to give the fans their money's worth.
It wouldn't be any different in a Marquez fight.
Morales fought disciplined in the 2nd MAB fight like you said but he was still throwing punches from the start. You throw punches against Marquez and are not running around the ring, Marquez is going to counter your shot, but he'll do it in combination.
Once they start exchanging Morales will not hang with the offensive arsenal of Marquez.
……..and Morales will wear out Tinman, he'll wear out because he wore out in each of his fights with MAB win or lose, and he wore out in each of his 3 fights with Pacquiao, even the fight he won vs Pacquiao. Morales was dominating Pacquiao for more than half the fight, but then he ran out of steam. I had Pacquiao taking almost all the late rounds and the fight going from a dominant performance by Morales to him only winning 7-5 on my card.
Morales was lucky to survive the 12th because he was getting hammered by Pacquiao.
We saw what happened to Morales against Pacquiao in their other two fights, especially the 2nd fight, Morales was doing well early but then he lost steam and it all went down hill.
Its always been that way with Morales, against upper tier competition, he loses steam and he's gasping in the late rounds.
That would happen vs Marquez and we all know Marquez is a finisher.

Dammit Tinman you got my blood boiling and so I had to tell it like it is!!!

 

Pacquiao was a beast but he was somewhat one dimensional in that his main weapon was the straight left hand.

It took Marquez two full rounds to figure Pacquiao out and then he went on to dominate the remainder of the fight.

People need to be reminded that by Morales' own admission, he took the blueprint to fight Pacquiao from Marquez.
Morales watched that fight countless number of times in preparing for Pacquiao.

Pacquiao became a better fighter after his first fight with Morales as Roach was teaching him new things in incorporating the fight hand.

…...but I do agree, the most dangerous Pacquiao to face was the one dimensional Pacquiao who came out you unmercifully from all angles and never stopped punching while loading up with the left hand.
When he incorporated more boxing into his style as Nacho Beristain would point out, at least for Marquez who's a master boxer, it became easier for them to decipher a Pacquiao was now not as reckless as he had been.

 

Marquez struggled off the front foot against Norwood, John, Mayweather and Bradley. We can allow some leniance for the Bradley fight due to being undersized and older. And for Mayweather being undersized.

That being said you know as well as I do Marquez is more comfortable reacting to his opponent rather than taking the lead. Hes not a guy who is looking to feint, take the initiative, unless his opponent is tired or stunned. Marquez would counter, rock you and then try and pour it on.

Marquez is not a guy who takes center ring mano e mano and looks to feint, lead and land off of initiation. It's not his bread and butter.

That is why he has been described as stylistic kryptonite for Pacquiao. Because Manny is most comfortable initiating the action and Marquez is an orthodox power puncher with a big right hand who wants to counter.

Morales did not fade in the 1st Pac fight. In the 12th round he chose to go toe to toe with a prime Pac. That is a losing fight plan for just about anybody, but he already had 7 rounds in the bag and the fight sealed. He faded in the 1st Barrera fight because he was getting hammered to the body in a savage fight. Remember in the 3rd fight it was Barrera who had faded, not Morales. But Barrera had racked up too many first half rounds.

Also Morales threw over 120 punches in round 12 against Kim or whatever that Koreans name was. His gas tank is not all time great, but he only gassed during highly intense, savage fights.

Marquez is no stranger to an all out war. But Morales if he is smart will not engage in that type of fight.

 

Its debatable as to weather or not which version of Pac was most dangerous. The 126 pound, young whirlwind. Or the older higher weight class late 2000s version of Pac that blitzed through Hatton and Cotto.

I would say the mid 2000s Featherweight version is the hardest to prepare for. He carried quite a bit more power then. And was something we haven't really seen before stylistically. A southpaw with unmerciful aggression from all angles, blinding speed, thudding power and non stop motor and head movement. That version of Pac is competitive against any Featherweight in boxing history.

 

Marquez had a easier time with the Pacquiao of the higher weight divisions... even Barrera had less trouble with Pacquiao at 130 than at 126

 

Is there a photo wherein Erik, JMM, MAB and Pac are all in one shot?

 

You noted in a previous post Marquez had trouble fighting on the front foot.
So many people say that about Marquez and its just not true
Obviously he's at his best when his opponent is going to him as it allows him the opportunity to lead his opponent to the angle he wants him in to then unleach the multishot combinations that has become his trademark. You name me one boxer puncher that the same cant be said of????

Obviously when you have a fighter like Chris John or Derrick Gainer who are continuously on the run, that type of style doesn't allow for any fighter to land with the regularity that one would against a fighter that stands at center ring or comes forward.
When you're facing a runner the scoring opportunities diminish, but that's not just for Marquez that goes for any fighter.
Name me a fighter who looks and does better vs runners????

How many slippery runners did Erik Morales face???
From my recollection he only faced one rated fighter that had that type of style, Zahir Raheem, and Raheem dominated Morales.
Morales looked clueless against a fighter moving in circles and away from him, unlike Marquez in his fights vs that type of mover he was able to still outbox them.
John, Gainer, and Norwood Marquez certainly outboxed, that there was home cooking in the other fighters backyard is a different matter.

My point is that I think that the problem with people critiqueing Marquez when up against movers is that they criticize his performance because he doesn't look as spectacular against the slippery mover, but like I said, name me one fighter that looks just as impressive vs a mover than one that is there to fight?
Don't just lay that critique on Marquez that goes for every fighter who ever lived, even the great Pernell Whitaker who the fight before he faced Delahoya was thoroughly made to look foolish to the point of embarrassment against Diobylis Hurtado.
Whether you're a come forward fighter or one that fights on the backfoot, a fighter moving away from you will always present less offensive opportunity, the bottom line is can he still beat those fighters and Juan Manuel Marquez showed me that he can.
Morales as I said only really faced one mover and he lost badly against that fighter.

The eye test tells me everything and from what I've seen of Morales its usually him fading in the late rounds when he's up against high tier opposition that's up to his own level.
……..and it wasn't just the 12th round vs Pacquiao, Morales was losing more rounds than winning in the 2nd half of that fight.
Pacquiao lifted his game while Morales had to downshift as he wasn't going to make it up that hill in the gear he was at earlier.

Btw Tinman, Erik Morales isn't a mover in the mode of Gainer and Chris John, those fighters move and really don't punch, they flick.
There's really nothing behind their punches which is why they're able to get away from the heavier shots, their feet are never planted to throw hard shots.
Morales when he's boxed from the backfoot, he's still throwing shots with good leverage so you know that a good counterpuncher is still going to be able to land shots. In Marquez we're not talking good counterpuncher we're talking great.
I think the bette morer faceted boxer would win, and to me thats Juan Manuel Marquez.

 

Both McCullough and Ayala made their careers at 122 lbs and below, I've already agreed that at those weights Morales was a murderous puncher. Ayala was moving up when he faced Morales at 126 lbs, at that point Morales was definitely the bigger fighter so yes indeed Paulie was going to feel those shots.
Notice that McCullough noted that Victor Rabanales was the only fighter to hurt him.
I've heard Erik Morales himself say that Rabanales is the hardest he's ever been hit and it was during a sparring session.

My assement earlier on Morales was that the higher in weight he moved from 122 lbs, the less of a puncher he became.
Oh he could still punch, but he was no longer the murderous puncher that he had been at 122 lbs.
I don't think you'll find anyone at 130 lbs or above say that Morales was the hardest that's ever hit them.

 

Manny Pacquiao and Gennady Golovkin looked good against movers and runners. Ledwaba, Algieri, Monroe Jr., etc.

Some guys love it when you just run away.

Its not movers I'm talking about. Its guys who stand in the center of the ring, hold their ground and say to Marquez, you know what I'm just not going to initiate and you let you counter me, we can stare at each other all night long if need be. Basically what Norwood and John did.

Marquez likes to react to your move. He doesnt like to initiate the fisticuffs.

 

Classic case of 'the boxer I beat would beat the'. Marquez would school Morales. Look at Morales vs Raheem/Espadas 1, Morales didn't have a clue what to do

Marquez was robbed against John

 

Pacquiao is probably one of the few who would look good against a mover because his steps cover a lot of ground, particularly his first step, he has good hops when he makes that first move forward, and to boot even when he's thrown off balance from the fighter going backward, Pacquiao is also one of the very few boxers who can still get a shot off and land it hard enough even when he shoots it standing off the wrong foot.
Basically Pacquiao was just faster of foot than the fighter you mentioned moved on him.
That wasn't the case vs Mayweather was it? Against a fighter who's always on the defensive. Mayweather wont make an offensive move unless he knows return fire isn't going to come his way. That the exact mindset "Little Hagler" had vs Marquez. The more experienced Norwood took out every trick in the book against then a much younger Marquez and like Mayweather used those tricks to stall the action in the fight.
Still though the consensus by most experts was that Marquez had won a close fight.

That's what is somewhat bothersome to me Tinman, you hold fights against Marquez that the consensus viewed him as the winner.

Btw tinman, regardless of what we think are the strenghths and weaknesses of Marquez and Morales, do you really think that Morales is going to stand center ring and do nothing until Marquez initiates?
Pacquiao tried that and it didn't work and he's much faster than Morales.
Their are probing tactics great counterpunchers use to combat a fighter who just poses and is unwilling to initiate, mainly that tactic is to use the jab to the body and look for a response.
Marquez did that to Pacquiao, and Pacquiao would try countering the move upon which immediately Marquez was countering Pacquiao's attempt at a countershot.
I don't see Morales as fast enough to play fast chess with Marquez.
Eventually Marquez would force Morales to fight "Mexican style."
Your problem is that you think Morales is faster handed than Marquez, I say absolutely not.
I don't think Morales' handspeed comes close to Marquez'.

 

Btw Tinman, I know Golovkin has fought alot of lower level middleweights, but what high rated mover has Golovkin looked good against.

Canelo moved on him the first fight and I didn't see Golovkin landing many clean shots, in fact Canelo the mover landed the cleaner harder punches in that fight.
I wouldn't say Golovkin looks good against a high rated mover.

A fighter I can think of that looked good against movers is Julio Cesar Chavez, he looked great vs Camacho and Lonnie Smith.
Pernell Whitaker is a different animal altogether, one of those rare breeds that think defense first and goes outside of the rules to stall and break up rhythms. You certainly cant judge Chavez against movers and point to the Whitaker fight, against all other movers Chavez looked terrific in cutting off the ring.

 

lol Marquez boxes nothing like Raheem and has a different mindset in regards to approaching opponents. Marquez lays back, sometimes tries to hold the center, and only responds in combination after timing a counter. He is neither a fleet footed boxer nor an out and out pressure fighter. He isn't a full leader or initiator, a strategy similar to his countryman Saldivar but not as good, and with much less pressure. The Raheem fight was also at 135, where he used constant lateral movement - not comparable at all to Marquez. We are talking a battle at 126 (most likely) or 130 here.

I also thought Marquez won the John fight, but if you don't see how he was made fallible you are blind. He was made to lunge, miss and stumble by a good, not great, technician. Morales is a great fighter and technician, with length. If he stayed disciplined he wins this fight.

 

You ****ing idiot.