How does dempsey rank against the hardest hitters at heavy?

I don't remember writting this, if I did, if true, what was I replying to? PM the whole quote and what I was replying to

 

I remember writing the first sentence but not the second. If I did I probably went slightly too far.

But I've had numerous personal attacks today. Why are they okay, but an assumtion of racism is not for you?

 

It is a moderated forum.

There are unmoderated boxing forums out there, if that is what you want.

Personally I like to keep it about boxing!

 

Now I know you're biased. You tear Dempsey's competition as being "smaller less skilled" opponents but Ocasio was a 5'11 218 pound journeyman with 13 losses. You are using the Ocasio TKO as an example of Doke's having more "raw power"? The fight you posted had a 3 knock down rule, Ocasio was still conscious when it was stopped An example of raw power would be completely turning someone's lights out with a punch or combination or the opponent being unable to beat the count. I don't see why Dempsey couldn't stop that guy in 1 round either, he was even more aggressive than Dokes and hit harder.

The Smith vs Witherspoon fight is an even worse example. It is well documented that Smith was a last minute substitute and that Witherspoon did not give any effort in this fight. Even Smith himself acknowledges his opponent's heart wasn't in it.

Dempsey vs Firpo was not an example of attrition punching. He had his opponent down SEVEN TIMES in the first round and knocked him out in the 2nd. Maybe you don't know what "breaking a guy down" means? It's a sustained beating over several rounds that leads to a mid or late round stoppage. Brutalizing a guy in less than 2 rounds with more than half a dozen knockdowns is not attrition punching by any stretch of the imagination.

I do not care if you dislike Dempsey but at least make a logical argument.

 

But they weren't. If Nikolai Valuev was as fast and explosive as Tyson he'd be 200-0 (180 deaths, 20 knockouts).

What is the point of trying to discredit someone with a bunch of "ifs"? A lack of hand speed/fast twitch muscle you can blame on genetics but their lack of aggression is entirely their fault. The 80's had a lot of sorry ass boxers who had plenty of talent but just didn't make the most of it. They were often taller and more athletic than several opponents with good amateur backgrounds while Dempsey was often shorter and lighter and got much of his amateur experience literally brawling in bars since there wasn't much a firmly established amateur program. Dempsey cannot be blamed for following the rules established at the time and you're forgetting he was equally at risk of being KO'd early when knocked down. This is like blaming Ali for only facing 2 south paws when there were hardly any in his division.

Additionally, if Witherspoon and Dokes lacked late round KO's (let alone 1st round KO's) that's quite an assumption to claim they'd have a Tyson esque highlight reel. They simply weren't devastating knockout artists. Nothing you wrote was "in fairness".

 

I think my point was pretty straightforward. It seems kind of asinine to insist that Dempsey clearly hit harder than all of those later fighters just because he had more early knockouts, without taking into consideration all of the other traits and variables that affect those outcomes. This has nothing to do with "discrediting" anyone—differences in pure punching power are extremely overrated and these "who hit harder than who" debates are mostly pretty silly.

I don't see how your response has any bearing on the question of whether Dempsey hit harder than those guys did.

 

If we ignore Dempsey's weight and era, I don't think he'd be anywhere near top 10. What makes Dempsey a bigger puncher than guys like Lamon Brewster, DaVarryl Williamson, Bermane Stiverne, Luis Ortiz, or Carlos Takam? These guys would never make top 50. But they all hit harder than Dempsey imo. I can name 10 fighters today who hit harder than Dempsey- Joshua, Wilder, Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, Ortiz, Dubois, Ajagba, Bakole. It's hard to believe a 190 lbs fighter from hundred years ago hit harder than these guys.

 

Harder puncher, perhaps not.

Better finisher, absolutely.

Now even on the power issue, Dempsey did some very unusual things!

He basically fell into a punch, stopping himself from falling, with his knuckles against his opponents body!

When he got somebody right, the results were horrible!

 

You seem to be replying a lot for a discussion you find silly. And you literally made a thread about comparing punching power between eras and even bumped it to continue the discussion.

I don't rate Dempsey above the men Iisted based solely on his 1st round KO record. The eye test and effect his punches have on the opponent make this pretty obvious, especially men like dokes and witherspoon.

My response was to YOUR response detailing a bunch of what if scenarios about Smith, dokes, etc being faster and more aggressive and claiming they'd be able to produce similar results. Which is pure speculation and not really based on facts. Having aggression and killer instinct is part of what makes someone a good puncher and finisher and these are subjects you brought up so I responded to them and gave my thoughts on why they can't be used to take Dempsey down a peg (it doesn't matter how aggressive you are if you lack power, look at shawn porter or Robert Guerrero). I don't understand what was so confusing about that.

 

Probably in the top 30. JD's a much better pound for pound type of puncher, but at the end of the day who did he really knock out? Willard, was older and looks to have taken 99 flush shots before going out.

 

You know that Willard fight would be stopped in 1st today right? Same with Firpo fight. You can't say that Dempsey lacked one punch power, refs allowed far more punishment back then.

 

Did you read my first comment completely out of context on purpose? Everything you just wrote above is so obvious that I can't imagine why you felt the need to waste time typing it. This thread is, and always has been, about ranking punching power, not all of the other traits and intangibles that make someone a great puncher. You seem like you've been struggling with this throughout the thread.

 

And still, "punching power" and what it decides in a ring remains the most overrated factor of the sport by casuals.

It's not that Dempsey hit supremely hard that made him so effective. It was that he knew how to recognize or make opportunities to get this power consistently to its target while avoiding his opponent doing the same. That sounds almost self-evident but it is worth repeating. Nothing is funnier than watching some guy in love with his power landing a huge shot and looking bewildered when his opponent doesn't blink.