Tyson or Frazier? Who ranks higher on your heavyweight ATG list?

Jack Dempsey over Larry Holmes is some kind of Joke.

 

True but this was the Ali who had only boxed 17 completed rounds in nearly 4 years, including 3 and a half years where he hadn't fought at all.

Ali wasn't ready for that fight. Frazier was.

I think a prime Tyson would take advantage of Frazier's slow starts and Frazier would have a hard time landing due to Tyson's bobbing and weaving.

For me, Prime Tyson beats prime Frazier.

 

Walcott over Charles is worse.

 

Yeah but I can't say things like that without sounding like a fanboy.

 

Then I shouldn't say that Max Schmeling should be there too

 

Rereading it, I think my biggest gripes are the placements of the Klitschko's. Wlad is way too low and Vitali is way too high. What logical argument is there for Vitali over Bowe? What logical argument is there for Tyson over Wlad?

His saving grace for Charles could be that he could've put him at LHW.

 

Tyson for me.

One thing I'll never understand is how come Frazier gets all the credit for beating Ali first, but Norton gets very little for beating Ali 2nd. Had Ali v Norton 1 been 15 rounds, I think Norton stops him.

One guys a little over rated, with Ali being his best win, the other underrated with Ali being his best win .

 

I've got Joe at around 9 and Tyson 11.
Can't take that win over Ali, admitted maybe rusty but still the greatest ever, away from Joe. So he gets the higher spot for me.
Head to head, I can never really, truly, pick a sure winner.

 

Well, I don't like Bowe resume but I agree, he pronably should be ahead of Vitali. Wladimir should be in top 10 in my opinion, he's a great champion.

 

It's simple - Frazier has better resume than Norton outside of Ali fights.

 

Does he? Norton had more fights, and fought better competition. Yes, that is true.

When I look at the common opponents they fought, Norton was more impressive

Ali - Norton was the better. Norton = 2-1 over Ali.
Stander - Norton's win was more dominating than Frazier's
Quarry - Norton's win was more dominating than Frazier's

You have to watch the films, but the above it true.

 

Quarry lost to Frazier twice, and both versions were better than the one Norton beat. Point Frazier.

Ali was much better when he lost to Frazier, than he was for either of the fights Norton took. Point Frazier.

Stander?

Frazier has Ellis twice, Bonavena twice, Machen, Mathis and Chuvalo on top of the above. The general criticism of Frazier is that he lost so dominantly to Foreman, well Norton did even worse! And lost to Shavers and Garcia. Point Frazier. You can question Norton's win over Young too, which is 2nd best win.

Frazier is levels above Norton.

 

Definitely Tyson.

Frazier has the signature win, but that win alone can't erase the fact that Tyson otherwise (outside of the first Ali win) has a deeper resume of wins, and was far more dominant over a longer period of time.

Tyson, like Roy Jones, is so loved by the mainstream that I feel he gets intentionally underrated on Classic.

 

Agree with this

 

Quarry fought like a fool. Frazier grinded him Norton destroyed Quarry, watch the fight.

Ali became stronger and better clincher post the loss to Frazier. Norton simply was too busy and strong to let Ali control him with clinches.

Stander, Yes. He buckled Frazier knees and hardly landed much, just another moment on film that shows Frazier didn't have a good chin. Norton destroyed Stander.

Ali could not hurt Norton at all, he did hurt Frazier plenty. Hmmm.......

And of course Norton lost a very close one to a prime Holmes, beat Jimmy Young, and Duane Bobbick. Their resumes are close, and IMO Norton fought better competition overall.

IMO Norton beats Frazier in post the 2nd Ali fight.

PS: Frazier vs Bonavena is a draw on my card. Joe admits he was close to being stopped. Fat Buster Mathis was ahead of Frazier for a while.

Garcia was a ranked fighter and Norton avenged the loss. Norton was too old for Shavers. Had Frazier fought Shavers or Cooney very late in his career, he's getting Ko'd too.

Foreman blew Fraizer out easily That's why he didn't face Lyle, Shavers, Liston...those who can punch.