Tyson or Frazier? Who ranks higher on your heavyweight ATG list?

Holmes legs were completely gone. If there was one thing fat boy Mathis could do, it was use his fancy footwork and outpoint people with a smooth style he used in the amateurs. The Holmes of the Tyson fight probably wouldn't have the stamina to fight at Mathis' pace and would be very annoyed by him. Think about how much Holmes struggled with a green 15 fight Witherspoon's footwork or Carl Williams jab from the outside tactics. He barely won those fights (some say he lost) and that version of Holmes was undoubtedly better than the one who faced Tyson.

I agree with the rest. Holmes would make short work of Stander as he was the Scott Ledoux of the 70's. He'd easily beat Daniels and Ramos.

 

The Mathis comment was more of an after thought than what I had said previously. But frankly I don’t think Buster was the fighter that Tim Witherspoon was. And Holmes was basically steam rolling the much better Michael Spinks in their 1986 rematch. I have my doubts about him losing to the often out of shape Mathis who had beaten virtually no one at the time of the Frazier meeting but I guess that one’s up in the air

 

Tyson at 6/7 and Frazier at 9/10.

Despite Frazier having the better single win, Tyson has a far deeper resume, was the #1 guy for years and even fought for the championship as a 2-1 dog in 2002, 7 years after his return from prison, 12 years after his first loss and 14 years after his prime.

Tyson's record and his record against his opposition's record:
Tyson 50-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1334-213-17
Opp Winning %-85.3
Winning %-89.3
Overall Ranking: 87.3

Frazier's record and his opponent's record:
Frazier 32-4-1 (27ko's)
Opp W/L/D-942-196-36
Opp Winning %-80.2
Winning %-86.5
Overall Ranking: 83.4

Their record and opponent's record compared overall against the other ATG's:
1) Ali 56-5-0 (37ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1975-319-72
Opp Winning %-83.5
Winning %-91.8
Overall Ranking: 87.7

2) Tyson 50-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1334-213-17
Opp Winning %-85.3
Winning %-89.3
Overall Ranking: 87.3

3) Lewis 41-2-1 (32ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1124-240-23
Opp Winning %-81.0
Winning %-93.3
Overall Ranking: 87.2

4) Marciano 49-0-0 (43ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1502-515-88
Opp Winning %-71.4
Winning %-100
Overall Ranking: 85.7

5) Louis 66-3-0 (52ko's)
Opp W/L/D-2749-711-185
Opp Winning %-75.3
Winning %-95.7
Overall Ranking: 85.5

6) Holmes 69-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1482-384-50
Opp Winning %-77.3
Winning %-92.0
Overall Ranking: 84.7

7) Frazier 32-4-1 (27ko's)
Opp W/L/D-942-196-36
Opp Winning %-80.2
Winning %-86.5
Overall Ranking: 83.4

8) Foreman 76-5-0 (68ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1727-609-96
Opp Winning %-71.0
Winning %-93.8
Overall Ranking: 82.4

9) Liston 50-4 (39ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1178-447-100
Opp Winning %-68.3
Winning %-92.6
Overall Ranking: 82.3

10) Holyfield 26-10-2 (17ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1445*-119-22
(Only counts Heavyweight fights)
Opp Winning %-91.9
Winning %-68.4
Overall Ranking: 80.2

11) Dempsey 61-6-9 (50ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1554*-486-444
(6 fights with no info)
Opp Winning %-62.6
Winning %-80.3
Overall Ranking: 71.5

12) Johnson 84-13-14 (45kos)
Opp W/L/D-1653*-537-322
( does not include all bouts with no info or his 17 newspaper fights)
Opp Winning %-65.8
Winning %-75.7
Overall Ranking: 70.8

 

Agreed. I don't think their's much in it. That being said, I do value your opinion a lot (more than almost anyone if not everyone else on this forum). I wonder who you'd go for if pressed.

 

Hey cheers. Man if i was pressed on this one i think i'd get a headache hahaha. They are so close for me. I did a top 10 list here soooo long ago. Trying to remember what my order was.

 

You said what Tyson's head movement was designed for. I told you what other uses it had.

I didn't say it would be exactly the same.

Tyson would bob and weave to get in a position to get leverage into a punch and move his head to make himself harder to hit.

He would do that against any opponent, although the style would vary depending on who the opponent was.

I'm not disputing that because that's not what I said.

 

You're arguing with one of the leading Tyson Haters on this forum. I think it's obvious Tyson would still use head movement, no matter what size the opponent is. He's just trying to create an argument when there's nothing there. The Haters all do this.

 

So what exactly are we disagreeing with? The only thing I said was that it would be harder to weave, get in position, and get leverage on a short stocky opponent standing right in front of him, not that it would be impossible or pointless. This is common sense. I said this from the beginning yet you keep replying to my posts.

Yes I "hate" Tyson so much that in this very thread I said you could make an argument for Tyson having a better resume than Frazier. I hate Tyson so much that I've picked Tyson to beat Frazier head 2 head. I'm such a hater that he's in my top 10 list h2h and on terms of overall skill and ability. All you've done is once again expose just how sensitive you are and how cowardly you are by not addressing me directly. I know you'll ignore this and prove my point once again!

 

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You know perfectly, I´m not comparing their resumes with Ali and keep it as Thomas and others say, you can argue for anyone here. I don´t care if you pick Frazier or Tyson with their hole career, I give a **** about it. BUT you said:

"Why does Tyson have the better résumé?
Pinky, Tucker, Rudduck and an old Holmes isn't exactly better than Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis and Mathis. Hell, a prime Foster > past prime Spinks."

and again "No. I'm telling you it's Joe Frazier with his two wins over Jerry Quarry and a prime, heavyweight Jimmy Ellis. "

You are arguing Fraziers resume is comparable without the Ali win. Stop wiggling out of the debate in "choklab" mode. What you wrote is just pure bull****. It goes so far that other posters here bring up the word "crap defenses":

"while he might not have a win as good as Frazier’s over Muhammad Ali, he also never defended against anyone as bad as Dave Zyglewicz, Ron Stander, Manuel Ramos or Terry Daniels... I realize these men don’t make up the cornerstone of Joe Frazier’s resume... But that’s still a lot of crap defenses... "

Fraziers status depends more on that single Ali win than probably any other resume in history. Imho even George Foreman doesn´t get that out from beating undefeated Frazier himself much more decisively.

Honestly, can you take yourself serious here anymore? Apart from Sangria, who of the debating users here are "Tyson fan girls"?
Aren´t you yourself the last die hard Tyson hater on the Classics, with even SwagEel and Wass1985 matured on Tyson threads? You might be young, maybe thats where the urges to go General mode comes from. Apart from you, everyone here is serous on the debate without picking up poo and throw it. Beside that, the main subject isn´t even a Tyson or Norton topic, but about Fraziers resume getting promoted by Mr. #1 Heavyweight, almost independent of success.

And its about his resume facing punchers too. It didn´t need Foremans to put him on the ground. I won´t go on here to explain you odds here, since NoNeck already did that.

 

Yeah Frazier got put down in his second or third pro fight against Mike Bruce, by Bonavena in his 12th fight (pretty good going fighting and beating Bonavena in that many fights actually when you see Tyson was still fighting the Donnie Longs and Robert Colays at that point) and Foreman. So you have a quick knockdown as a novice, two as a green prospect against a world class fighter and then knockdowns against one of the greatest punchers in HW history when past prime. That’s it.

Tyson got knocked down and out by a fringe contender type in Douglas who was so so before Tyson and did squat afterwards and at best was a reasonable puncher only. And this was in his prime. Then a supposedly shot Evander Holyfield who hadn’t scored a legit stoppage in 5 years bashed him senseless until the referee had to save his arse. I won’t go into Lewis destroying him because that’s to be expected at that stage of Tyson’s career and the Williams and McBride embarrassments say more about Tysons heart than his chin.

My issue with Tyson fans is they go ludicrously hard on the perceived faults of anyone that people might think stands a chance against him and totally gloss over Tyson’s failings and flaws. The example here is that Frazier is supposedly “chinny”based on Foreman beating him yet Tyson who had more stoppage losses at a younger age than Joe against some less than thunderous punchers is thought you have the massive chin advantage here. It’s lazy and selective posting and I’ll call Tyson fans on it all day long. You don’t like it and are upset I don’t join the Tyson circle jerk? I don’t care.

 

Sangria Tyson at 6/7 and Frazier at 9/10.

Despite Frazier having the better single win, Tyson has a far deeper resume, was the #1 guy for years and even fought for the championship as a 2-1 dog in 2002, 7 years after his return from prison, 12 years after his first loss and 14 years after his prime.

Tyson's record and his record against his opposition's record:
Tyson 50-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1334-213-17
Opp Winning %-85.3
Winning %-89.3
Overall Ranking: 87.3

Frazier's record and his opponent's record:
Frazier 32-4-1 (27ko's)
Opp W/L/D-942-196-36
Opp Winning %-80.2
Winning %-86.5
Overall Ranking: 83.4

Their record and opponent's record compared overall against the other ATG's:
1) Ali 56-5-0 (37ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1975-319-72
Opp Winning %-83.5
Winning %-91.8
Overall Ranking: 87.7

2) Tyson 50-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1334-213-17
Opp Winning %-85.3
Winning %-89.3
Overall Ranking: 87.3

3) Lewis 41-2-1 (32ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1124-240-23
Opp Winning %-81.0
Winning %-93.3
Overall Ranking: 87.2

4) Marciano 49-0-0 (43ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1502-515-88
Opp Winning %-71.4
Winning %-100
Overall Ranking: 85.7

5) Louis 66-3-0 (52ko's)
Opp W/L/D-2749-711-185
Opp Winning %-75.3
Winning %-95.7
Overall Ranking: 85.5

6) Holmes 69-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1482-384-50
Opp Winning %-77.3
Winning %-92.0
Overall Ranking: 84.7

7) Frazier 32-4-1 (27ko's)
Opp W/L/D-942-196-36
Opp Winning %-80.2
Winning %-86.5
Overall Ranking: 83.4

8) Foreman 76-5-0 (68ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1727-609-96
Opp Winning %-71.0
Winning %-93.8
Overall Ranking: 82.4

9) Liston 50-4 (39ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1178-447-100
Opp Winning %-68.3
Winning %-92.6
Overall Ranking: 82.3

10) Holyfield 26-10-2 (17ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1445*-119-22
(Only counts Heavyweight fights)
Opp Winning %-91.9
Winning %-68.4
Overall Ranking: 80.2

11) Dempsey 61-6-9 (50ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1554*-486-444
(6 fights with no info)
Opp Winning %-62.6
Winning %-80.3
Overall Ranking: 71.5

12) Johnson 84-13-14 (45kos)
Opp W/L/D-1653*-537-322
( does not include all bouts with no info or his 17 newspaper fights)
Opp Winning %-65.8
Winning %-75.7
Overall Ranking: 70.8

^^^ Very good data

 

Frazier.

 

People who say that Frazier's resume is based only on Ali win are tallking bull****. Come on, Frazier cleaned the division before Ali fight.

 

Frazier, but I have them pretty close. Frazier never got knocked out or humiliatingly beaten by second and third rate opposition. Frazier also had more heart, he'd gotten off the canvas to win. Mike never did that, once he was down the fight was mostly over but the shouting. Finally, Mike never had a win the scale of a Muhammad Ali. Nowhere near close.

That said, even Joe didn't terrify the division like Iron Mike did (not sure ANY heavyweight outside of Foreman and Liston ever did). Mike was a terrific fighter who had at least as good a defense as Joe and more of a two-handed monster than Joe was {though Joe did have a bizarrely underrated right hand). Mike had the potential to be a far greater fighter than Joe ever did...but he just didn't realize that potential, and seemed to fade dramatically at a very young age (the Mike who fought in the 90s wasn't the same Mike from the 80s imo).

No offense or disrespect meant to fans of iron Mike in the slightest (I'm a fan myself).

 

Did you notice that he keeps changing his argument instead of admitting that he's wrong?