Could have Mike Tyson reigned as champion for 3 years in the 1960's ?

What does the "M" in Pat M stand for??

And your post made me LOL because it's what I was thinking.

 

To answer the thread question - I can see Mike reigning for three years in the 60's. The only real threats would be Ali, Liston and Frazier and Mike probably has a good chance against all of them, especially Frazier.

 

I made a thread on expert opinions on this matchup. Will try to pull it up.

 

Jim Carney- Author and Boxing Expert: Tyson vs. Liston
Steel and concrete here. Perhaps the two heavyweight champions you’d least like to meet in a dark alley (although Dempsey, Foreman, Jeffries and John L. would also be especially fearsome in that venue). In addition, both Sonny and Iron Mike may have the same major flaws.

Both are extremely strong and able to convert their strength into punching power. Tyson also has quicker than average hands, which added to his power and defensive ability. He is generally considered above Sonny in this area – Liston’s hand speed being rated average by some, above average by others. Tyson also had the edge in foot speed, though this might mean less than in other match-ups as both would basically be coming forward. A huge advantage for Liston would be his 13-inch edge in reach, whose value is enhanced by what many consider the most powerful left jab of all time. Liston would appear to have the edge in durability, though Tyson rates well here too. Many may feel that the fact that Mike hit the floor more times than Sonny relates to a weaker heart rather than a weaker chin.

Both men are suspect in the matter of heart and there are specific parallels between them in this area. Each man folded when they met a man around their own talent level at their peak – Liston with Ali and Tyson with Holyfield. They also both were total embarrassments in their rematches with their exposers – Liston futiley chasing Ali then flopping down in round one and Tyson being outmuscled and outfought and then biting Holyfield twice before being disqualified in round three.

In other areas of this match-up, the pair is close in weight, Liston’s height advantage is not significant to Tyson (virtually all of his major opponents were at least a little taller than Sonny). Though Liston and Tyson have fought men with the same main assets (strength and punch) that they face in each other, I don’t know that Mike ever fought an oncoming fighter who combined brawn and skill with a mercilessly glacial approach like Liston. Likewise, Sonny never met a man with Mike’s hard-hitting, ferocious (and in the beginning) bobbing and weaving attack.

Tyson was probably the better schooled under Cus D’Amato and Kevin Rooney, but Liston’s trainer Willie Reddish was solid and Sonny had the benefit of training with and serving as a sparring partner for master boxer and former great heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles. Both men rate well in the skill department. However, after the deaths of D’Amato and Jimmy Jacobs and the firing of Rooney, Tyson grew notably sloppier in his ring techniques. Testimony to Liston’s skill is given by Muhammad Ali who notes that Sonny was smart in the ring. Overall, there wasn’t much difference in the quality of foes each man met and beat.

In this dream matchup, the pair begins by competing with each other to intimidate. Tyson talks of dire consequences for Sonny and gets the famous Liston stare in return. The battle is a nip and tuck smashing war from the beginning. Tyson goes low to the body and switches to uppercuts while Sonny stabs with his awesome jab, sometimes adding left hooks and occasional right crosses to the mix. The battle swings back and forth. Despite the fact that Mike’s short arms and more or less equal strength should give him an advantage in the infighting. Sonny dominates here. For some reason, all Mike usually does in close is hold on, sometimes even grabbing the other party and holding even when he is winning an exchange.

During his career, Tyson folded in a number of different circumstances, including incidences when he was being overpowered. Liston, on the other hand, usually only had trouble (and only gave in against Ali) when he was fighting men with styles confusing to him. In brawn to brawn confrontations he was always a man’s man. He flattened powerful Cleveland Williams after Williams had broken his nose at the start of one of their bouts. Zora Folley hit him 30 straight shots against the ropes – and then Sonny steamrolled him. Sonny also went through one of his three fights with Marty Marshall with a broken jaw. I don’t think Mike would fare that well in these situations. That’s the difference between the two and that’s why I pick Liston by a late round KO.

By Moontan(Judge) Heavyweightaction.com -Expert

Very difficult matchup between two of the strongest heavyweight champions in history. Both dominated their division for a brief period as thoroughly as anybody has seen. Tyson from 1986 to 1990 and Liston from 1959 to 1964. Both loss their title in two of the biggest upsets in heavyweight history. Ali was a 7 to 1 underdog to Liston while Buster Douglas had even greater odds against Tyson.

Both were tremendous fighters that intimidated their opponents and relied on it to big advantages in many of their fights. Neither fighter held must because the were constantly coming forward throwing punches. Their opponents were always holding and grabing trying to stay upright.

The Tyson that I am comparing in this fight was the person who dominated boxing from 1986 to 1990 before he had all types of struggles with the law and did not work or train as hard. The Liston that I am ranking was the top fighter in the world from 1959 to 1963. Tyson was never as dominating in the 1990s as he was earlier and Liston of course declined rapidly after his fights with Patterson. Both made a good living on their reputations during the later part of their careers.
I watched more fight footage comparing these two fighters than any of the previous matches we have picked. Watching Tyson in his match against Razor Ruddock and Liston in his fight against Cleveland Williams. Ruddock had very similar size to Liston and Cleveland Williams was the most powerful fighter that Liston faced during his career. Most fighters who survived Liston boxed and moved and tied him up inside(Eddie Machen). Williams did not, he was the aggressor while the fight lasted and Liston took everything he threw at him and knocked Williams out in third round. Tyson took numerous shots from Ruddock in both their fights and Razor lasted the full 12 rounds in their second fight. Tony Tucker also gave Tyson a lot of trouble with his reach but he held and grabbed which Liston would not be doing. I see Liston’s jab and reach being a big factor in the contest as well as his outstanding boxing ability and his offensive skills. The only fighter Tyson ever faced with the offensive skills and power of Liston was Lennox Lewis and Tyson did not fair well against the Brit. Liston was much stronger than Lewis. I don’t see the fight lasting long because both fighters were so aggressive. Give me Liston in a 6th round knockout.

The Sweet Science: by Frank Lotierzo Jan.,2005
Who Would've Won

A Liston-Tyson confrontation comes down to two things: who would've backed up, and who would've been the least intimidated by the other. I know this may not be popular, but I just can't envision Liston being intimidated by Tyson. Liston had no fear of Clay/Ali, and on top of that he kept going after a hard puncher like Cleveland Williams, who was in his prime at the time, even after having been nailed by bombs from Williams. Liston also chased down Marty Marshall despite having a broken jaw for the majority of the fight. This is in contrast to Tyson, who would go into long defensive shells and stop throwing punches when faced with an opponent who attacked him with big shots. I believe in a battle of wills, Sonny convinces Mike that he's not going to win easier than Mike convinces Sonny that it's not his night.

The fact that I think Liston wins the psychological warfare translates into the physical fight and how it plays out. I think Tyson may try to jump on Liston like he did Holyfield and Lewis at the onset. The first round or two would be incredible. Tyson would probably come on very quickly, almost recklessly, and his movement and fast hands might provide him with a measure of success. But then he'd face his first problem, Liston wouldn't fall. And, of course, Liston always fired back.

All it would take would be a few of those telephone pole jabs to take all the starch out of Tyson mentally. I also doubt he'd have the nerve to pull any ear-biting, arm-breaking **** with Liston. Once Tyson gets second thoughts about coming in with impunity and starts to think his way through the fight, he's in trouble. The moment Liston senses that Tyson has some reservations, he'd pick up the pace and apply even more mental and physical pressure.

The way I see it, Liston stops Tyson. He had the jab reach and power, along with the style, to neutralize Tyson and his greater hand speed. On top of that, Sonny takes away Tyson's biggest weapon, the intimidation factor. It says here that Tyson is the one who harbors self-doubt, and it is Tyson who would be unsure of himself during the stare down as he faced Liston in the center of the ring before the bell for round one.


Cox’s Corner
If anyone could intimidate Mike Tyson it would be Sonny Liston. Liston’s awesome 84-inch reach, destructive jab, and deadly hooks and uppercuts would spell trouble for Iron Mike. As Tyson moved in he would be greeted by Sonny’s thunderous long jab. Liston was at least Tyson’s equal in terms of sheer power. Sonny was also under-rated as a boxing technician. Liston would hammer Tyson at long range, control the tempo of the fight, and batter Tyson much worse than Douglas ever could. By the eighth round Tyson would have trouble seeing Sonny’s punches and a murderous barrage would send him down for the count.

Experts Predicted Outcome: Liston’s favor 4-0
Jim Carney Liston KO late
Moontan Liston 6-KO
Frank Lotierzo Liston
Cox’s Corner Liston KO

They also did Tyson VS Frazier, Liston VS Ali, Liston vs Foreman, etc.

 

Nope. I don't see him beating a prime Liston, or Ali as others have said. Also can see Frazier beating him. That being said, he'd certainly pick up the title at some point.

 

Get real, Ali stands no chance whatsoever of ever KO'ing Tyson, he's too weak of a puncher. Ali's best chance is to run and tap him to win it on points. Cause if Tyson ever connects, it's lights out for Ali.
If Cooper sent Ali to dreamland, then you can bet Tyson finishes him with ease if he manages to land a proper combo.

 

Well spotted. Foreman was heavier and had thicker bones in the 90's, that's why he was more durable and punch resilient.
But there's no proof whatsoever Foreman hit harder than Liston.

Foreman is too slow to ever stand a chance against a skilled ATG who can move well. Not to mention Tyson could also hit very hard and accurate.
Foreman gets beat by all the ATG's from the 80's, 90's, and 00's. He's too f..in SLOW.. Holmes, Tyson, Holyield, Bowe, Lewis, the K brothers, they all beat Foreman.

 

He beats any version of Ali.

 

How did Douglas ktfo Tyson then with his 53% career KO ratio of largely toilet paper opposition lol?

Or Holyfield with his 50% KO ratio flattered by his Cruiserweight record lol lol?

Ali as a non puncher still had a 60% KO ratio against the best resume of fighters in the divisions history you absolute tit.

Sangria come quick! There’s a more deluded Tinkerbell nut hugger than you. I didn’t think it was possible.

 

Disagree.

 

Was there ever more antipathy for this fighter next to Foxy? @swagdelfadeel What do you think?

 

I agree, but what I meant is if Tyson gets floored the fight's over because Mike never got up off the floor to win a fight. Ever.

No offense to fans of Mike, it's just true.

 

I quote this not because I want to disagree with you particularly but because I am going to use the Tillis fight as an example.

Yesterday, Watched every Tyson pro bout up until Tillis. I was stunned out how sharp Tyson was at the beginning. He looked like a seasoned pro. He was fighting his level competition and was being brought along very fast. I think he had most 17 of his those 20 fights in his 1st year.

Everyone of those early fights Mike dominated the pace and the exchange.

Then the Tillis fight. In that, if you didn’t know who Mike Tyson was you would think aside from the flash knockdown, that him and Tillis were evenly matched. Mike was not very aggressive, and at time Tillis was dancing around Mike, like Ali would, landing jabs, like Ali would.

That Tyson looked completely different from the fighter that fought Jamieson and Ferguson and Zouski. This Tyson was the one we base all of this talk on. 19 straight KOs etc.

I believe that styles make fights. I won’t time talking about other fighters of the 60s. For me only Ali and Liston matter. Liston his harder and is way better schooled and faster the peekaboo style before. Ali is presents the same stylist match up as Tillis etc with more, more speed, more power, greater chin and supreme fight spirit on top of better conditioning and coaching.

Tyson is never a champion on the 60 simply because Ali is.

 

We are talking prime vs prime here. Tyson was not prepared at all for the Douglas fight. Plus Douglas can hit way harder than Ali. And it still took him 10 rounds of non-stop pummeling and a 4-5 punch combo to take down Tyson.
And Tyson was half the boxer he used to be when he fought Holyfield.

First of all, those were mostly TKO's by an accumulation of punches. Second of all, they were against slow stiff bums.

 

I noticed Johnny B. is a much more recent member. His opinions might change with time.

Buster Douglas was a big zero compared to Muhammad Ali, anyone truly knowledgeable about boxing knows that. Buster Douglas knocked Mike OUT, and he was no bigger puncher than Ali (probably significantly weaker than when Ali took the time to sit into his right hand).

To pick prime Mike over 60s Ali is kind of funny, considering that. Ali runs rings around Buster: better jab, much better footwork, handspeed, and he damn sure knew how to throw a heavyweight punch (it's just that he always waited until the opponent was really hurt).