Greats whose legacies were most victimized by bad decisions

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by FighterInTheWind, May 7, 2020.


  1. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Active Member Full Member

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    Let's face it: Human beings have a tendency to judge things purely on the basis of outcomes or results rather than the context. Perhaps this is inevitable, because nobody has time to learn all the surrounding circumstances that complicate assessing legacies. That is why, for instance, Alexander is considered greater than Hannibal among amateurs: Alexander was undefeated, whereas Scipio beat Hannibal at Zama - even though Alexander inherited the greatest military machine in antiquity and fought no one of repute, whereas Hannibal and his downtrodden mercenaries of some 40,000 engaged the greatest power in the world whose manpower numbered some 800,000 (if Polybius is to be believed).

    Likewise, in boxing we gravitate to won-loss record. The problem, however, is that relying solely on won-loss record is even more deceiving in boxing than in military history. Whereas there usually are clear-cut winners and losers in battles, many undeserving victors are declared as such in boxing. The problem is even more exacerbated when he examine the legacies of Asian boxers of yore, given the sheer amount of corruption in that region in the past and the bad decisions that resulted from it. Typically, casual fans see what Boxrec says and judge fighters entirely on that basis. This distortion is less severe now that we actually have more fights of Asian fighters online, but it still exists.

    So in that context: Which fighters' legacies would you say were most victimized by bad decisions?

    My two candidates are Fighting Harada and Jung-Koo Chang. If Harada is correctly awarded the win in his second fight with Kingpetch, then he's undefeated as a flyweight with 3 wins against fringe top 10 all-time flyweights. Further, if he is given the decision in his first Famechon fight, then he's a 3 weight champion, and the first to begin as a flyweight champion, in an era when that would have been a stupendous achievement. Likewise, Chang has two controversial losses - though these were admittedly closer decisions. If Chang gets the decision against Zapata in their first fight, then Chang retires undefeated in his "first career." Then if he gets the decision against Chitalada after his comeback, then he becomes a two-weight champion, one of the first to win both junior flyweight and flyweight, I believe.

    As currently stands, I think the Western assessment of Harada is around top 10 but not top 5 flyweight and around top 50 but not top 25 all-time pound-per-pound. With these two decisions changed, you'd have him top 5 flyweight and almost certainly top 25 pound-per-pound. In Chang's case, he is considered the #1 junior flyweight but with some contention ( with some votes going to Yuh), but not considered as a guy who could compete against the great flyweights. With those two decisions changed, he's undisputed #1 junior flyweight and possible top 10 all-time flyweight (I'd take him against any post World War II flyweight in a hypothetical head-to-head except Harada and possibly Too Sharp, but that's another debate).

    Who else?

    Edit: This thread was inspired by this thread: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/remove-y-from-xs-resume-and-x-will-no-longer-be-an-atg.648656/

    I also remember when knowledgeable people used to lecture me that Harada was not even a top 10 flyweight, and that he was at his best at bantamweight, because he "split with Kingpetch" and "lost to Esparza."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  2. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Kovalev - thought he was robbed against Ward. Altering both his legacy and the remainder of his career.
     
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Harada's a good shout.

    Frank Klaus has a star studded career without this, but if his draw with Ketchel was a win (which it's said have been deserved) and he becomes a lock for a top 10 MW, and there'd probably have been a legacy defining rematch.

    4 fights from Ali could have drastically changed his career. Had the Thrilla, Norton III, Young and Shavers been losses, would he be the HW GOAT? No.

    Holyfield getting the Valuev fight would've been monumental for his standing.
     
  4. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Harada had lost once coming into the Kingetch fight, so he wouldn't have left flyweight undefeated. HOWEVER, your point is well taken about the Famechon robbery affecting his legacy. He gets awarded that decision, and that's a HUGE accomplishment.

    He was a truly great fighter.
     
  5. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Active Member Full Member

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    I was going to say the same for Ali, but I desisted since 1) I assumed someone else would do so eventually, and 2) I didn't want to feed the trolls (I try to avoid too many Ali, Tyson, and Jones discussions, because they tend to get side-tracked quickly).
     
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  6. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Active Member Full Member

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    No, the Esparza fight was at bantamweight. I talked to a Japanese boxing historian about this a few decades ago.
     
  7. Xplosive

    Xplosive Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If the first Mayweather-Castillo fight was scored correctly, then the clueless mainstream sports fans couldn't say: "Floyd Mayweather is the GOAT because he retired undefeated!"
     
  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    He would've been the only man to be a Flyweight, Bantamweight and Featherweight champion. That's huge.
     
  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Boza-Edwards would be known as the best man of the 'Ferocious Four' had he rightfully gotten the nod in the Chacón remtach.
     
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  10. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Active Member Full Member

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    Exactamundo.

    Edit: Also another one I thought about but didn't want to feed the trolls ;)
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Yeah, Duran, Marciano and Dempsey too. They go nuts.
     
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I actually had Mayweather taking that one, 114-113.

    Another mention which is close to my heart, is obviously, Ezzard Charles. Had he gotten the Ray, Layne, Turnero, Johnson and fourth Walcott decision then you're looking at a guy with a case for top 3 P4P.
     
  13. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    How bout Jimmy Young vs Ali. I felt Young deserved the decision.
    That would give him wins over Ali and Foreman. That would jump him up historically exponentially. He already has two wins over Lyle, a draw with Shavers and disputable loss to Norton.
     
  14. FighterInTheWind

    FighterInTheWind Active Member Full Member

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    I had the same score as Lederman. I also frankly think both Mosley and DLH would have beaten Floyd if they fought in the latters' primes. I recall there was some talk of Mayweather v. Mosley before Mosley fought DLH, and apparently Mayweather's camp was never really serious about that one, as they didn't think it was winnable.

    Yes, there were a lot of bad decisions, from what I understand, even in the U.S. in the first half of the last century. There is also another issue about taking losses at face value in that era - in addition to bad decisions: The sheer number of times fighters fought. When you fight more than once a month, you are bound to have off nights - especially when it was not so easy to cancel or even postpone fights due to injuries.
     
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  15. Flo_Raiden

    Flo_Raiden Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jeff Fenech being robbed against Azumah Nelson in their first fight. He would have been a 4 division world champion had he got the decision. He was never the same after getting stopped in the rematch with Nelson.