Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by young_wolverine, May 6, 2020.


Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

  1. Marciano KO

    20 vote(s)
    16.8%
  2. Marciano Points

    4 vote(s)
    3.4%
  3. Liston KO

    92 vote(s)
    77.3%
  4. Liston Points

    3 vote(s)
    2.5%
  5. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

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    Always the same Mc, always the same.
     
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  2. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Liston beating Marciano is rational, the other way around is not.
    I agree to some extent with the rest, Liston fought the offshoot of Marcianos era, but having a 15-20lb weight advantage. Next to Rocky, its imho the smallest and weakest devision HW had seen since Dempsey.
    But Liston had less trouble with these fellows and was a underachiever due to bad timing. Its also his abilities that make him a favourite here.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Wrong.
     
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  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Subjective. I don't wish to have this argument. Also another "ATG" that you listed was a 38 year old, past if fat former great who hadn't fought in 2 years. The other 2 ATGS in Lewis and Holyfield beat him quite badly. At least Liston gave Ali, a far greater ATG than both of these man a much greater fight than Tyson did.



    I actually quoted an expert who said that. My actual words were "So Tyson gets credit for beating Ruddock but and beating punchers, but Liston beating big punchers in their own right (Williams, Valdez, Dejohn) means nothing. That's ridiculous. Both Liston and Tyson overcame adversity in beating Williams' and Ruddock respectively."


    On the contrary, I think you refuse to give Liston any credit for overcoming any adversity whatsoever (even Choklab, Liston's number one detractor disagrees).
    It's not a ridiculous statement at all and certainly not lying. At the end of the day it's all subjective. Multiple experts who know more than me and you have said the same thing. Are they lying as well?
     
  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    It's a Rocky thread. What else did you expect? :lol:
     
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  6. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It was six months later, not two months. That's not 'very shortly'.

    Not blaming Duran, it's his life and he can do what he likes but I think six months between title fights is more than long enough. Much longer than that and you're almost freezing the title. Perhaps Duran could have refrained from partying non stop, getting fat, having too much weight to lose and could have defended his title in shape SIX MONTHS after winning it? Buster Douglas is roundly (no pun intended) pilloried for showing up out of shape v Holyfield eight months after winning the title but Duran's lack of professionalism gets a bye because he'd only had six months? Come on now. Look at what you're saying. Duran was pushing 30 in 1980. If Leonard had hung much longer on you'd have said he waited till Duran got old before rematching.

    Can't we just blame Duran for his own lack of professionalism instead of looking to lump it on Leonard who kept in shape, didn't think fighting every six months was unreasonable and thought it fair enough that a champion do the same given he was about to earn $8m?

    And how did SRL rob Hagler of a clear win? By having one fight in five years, a drug and alcohol habit during that time, moving up to Marvin's weight and by telling Marvin to fight orthodox for the first third of the fight? This post smacks of hate for Leonard. That's fine; again, your prerogative but don't use it as a get out of jail free card for some of the mistakes made by fighters you do like.

    And if you don't think Leonard's a warrior, watch the first fight with Duran, watch the first fight with Hearns. I can't say I'm desperately fond of the man but some of the blind negativity towards him is irrational. He earned his spurs in the ring. He fought the best and he hung tough and while he was active he kept in shape. And when he lost he didn't make excuses. He went away and put it right. You can't ask for much more than that from your warriors. Indeed, when it comes to Duran, you seem to settle for a good deal less.
     
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  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    I think the mods are just fed up with his trolling, lying and intentional deceit. Can you blame them?
     
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  8. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    It's completely rational to think Marciano would beat Liston. He's a better puncher than anyone Liston fought, was undefeated, and beat more skilled opposition. It's very rational. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to go to sleep at night admitting Marciano would beat Liston but to say it's irrational is ridiculous.

    It's not like there isn't any evidence that Marciano was at least capable of beating Liston.

    What makes you think he had less trouble? Up until his fight with Ali he was 35 (25) - 1. I'd be more than comfortable with the idea that Marciano would have an easier time with that chunk of Liston's resume than Liston did. I seriously doubt the likes of Bert Whitehurst, Eddie Machen, or Marty Marshall go the distance with prime Rocky. Of course Rocky wouldn't be without going the full length of a fight on that schedule but imo it would be much less often.
     
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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You don’t think it was a technical breakdown?
     
  10. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    This entire thread is subjective. Were you under the impression that fantasy fights were objective? Funny because Holmes went to fight consistently for the next 10 years even being able to go the distance with Holyfield 4 years after being obliterated by Tyson and 7 years later fought an extremely close decision with Oliver McCall.

    The only atg that was within 20 lbs of Liston that Liston fought stopped him twice back to back for a combined total of 7 rounds. Tyson lasted longer than that in just one fight with either Holyfield or Lewis when he was incredibly past prime.

    Being stopped in 6 rounds then knocked out in the first round is not putting up a better fight than Tyson did with Holyfield and Lewis who were better punchers than Ali was.

    You literally said "I'm saying". You completely agreed with it or else you wouldn't have mentioned it.

    You're on record saying that finishing the fight with Marty Marshall, a tomato can, while having a broken jaw required a tremendous amount of courage. I don't agree that it requires a tremendous amount of courage whatsoever. It's a decent display of toughness but to say "tremendous amount of courage" applies to fights like Ali-Norton 1, Thrilla in Manila, or other pure battles in the ring. Not some fight intended to build up a rookie.

    I'm referring to you lying. Not other people.
     
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  11. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    :lol: Nice underhanded attempt to discredit Johnson's win over Valdez (and by extention Williams win over Johnson. Shame it doesn't stand up. You do realize Valdez went onto beat Brian London right? The same London you (laughably) said was 50-50 with Williams.

    He'd lost but 2 of his last 9 fights. He was not losing period. Just admit you lied.


    Doesn't matter according to you, they were coming off a loss so they clearly couldn't have been that good at that stage in their career. Actually looking at Marciano's record (you know the feeling, you have an orgasm every time you take a look at it) the following men were coming off a loss:
    Harry Bilazarian
    Humphrey Jackson
    Bob Jefferson
    Bill Hardeman
    James Patrick Connolly
    Gilley Ferron
    Jimmy Evans
    Artie Donato
    Don Mogard (who despite losing his last 6 fights went the distance with the rock)
    Harry Haft
    Tommy DiGiorgio
    Pete Louthis
    Ted Lowry (despite losing his last 7, had Marciano on the verge of a KO and seemingly carrying him to see the final bell).
    Joe Dominic
    Phil Muscato
    Eldridge Eatman
    Gino Buonvino
    Johnny Shkor
    Ted Lowry (2X)
    Bill Wilson
    Harold Mitchell
    Art Henri
    Willis Applegate (lost his last 5 fights yet Marciano couldn't even knock him down let alone out. Unknowns Angel Sotillo, Lee Oma were able to easily accomplish this)
    Freddie Beshore
    Lee Savold
    Gino Buonvino
    Jersey Joe Walcott
    Ezzard Charles

    That's 28 out of 49 names, more than HALF his opponents who according to your logic were "losing fights".

    Another was coming off a draw; Pat Richards. Another four, Lee Epperson (never won a fight) John Edwards (retired with a losing record with only one win), Jimmy Weeks (never ended up winning a fight), Bill Hardeman (never won a fight) were making their debuts.

    Because I'm in a generous mood. I won't make a list of people who had less than 6 pro fights at the time they faced Marciano.

    So out of the 49 men, Marciano "beat" 33 hadn't even won their last fight. 67.35%

    That means only 16 men (22.65%) were actually coming off a win (some of them hadn't had even 6 pro fights but because you caught me in a generous mood I won't go into that).
    Of course you don't. Someone who the big cat knocked out in the first round and who literally never even TOUCHED Williams knocked Valdez out. No significance there whatsoever. Only in Chok world. :lol:

    As stated above he went on to beat Brian London.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  12. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    BlackCloud, just out of interest who do you think knocks Marciano out the quickest? Liston, Foreman, or Tyson? Much as I hate to admit it, I can't see Marciano escaping the 1st against Tyson (tbh I'd favor a lot of Tyson victims to defeat Marciano).
     
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  13. Noel857

    Noel857 I Am Duran Full Member

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  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    No, it was a vague mention of what either fighter had. "type of jab", "won't work" "at his distance", ect. That's a list, not a breakdown. If you want to break it down, say why those are important, and what happens and why.
     
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  15. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Tyson, cause he has the quickest hands and he's a very fast starter.
     
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