I probably knew it before you did I had this fight on VHS 30 years ago. nino was lucky London butted himself into a cut because Nino was losing that fight. Brian was all over Nino like a cheap coat. It was a lousy mauling fight. Asked afterward who would win between Patterson and Valdes, London, without hesitation, said Patterson would “paralyse” Valdes.
What like this: Liston was a good boxer really, with very heavy hands. He was immensely strong and had an excellent variety of blows. Very traditional and conventional. His strong jab was a huge weapon against upright fighters who fought from a squarer footed stance. It knocked them backward before they knew they were in range and blinded them for the follow up blows. however, punching down it won’t have the same effect. Sonny was never difficult to hit over or inside of that jab. Up close Marciano will be landing blows whilst smothering the leverage from the Liston follow up. It neutralises much of Listons game. Whilst Liston can physically March Rocky back Marciano can hit him from a lot more angles from the tighter distance than Sonny can hit him. And I don’t believe Rocky can be forced backwards for a long enough period to be dominated. His answer was always to dip low and crowed in, which always had a neutralising effect on what the other man wanted to do. The way to beat Rocky is to meet him at his own range and beat him to the punch instead of giving up ground whist trying to do something else. Rocky did get hit but he was a short fighter who was hard to hit with long punches. He fooled everyone to fight inside. Where he had the advantage of output. I think Sonny would find Rocky very frustrating to fight. Though Sonny can do serious damage, He can shake Rocky loose from a clinch and manhandle him, but won’t be able to get Marciano entirely far enough away to destroy him at arms length. Rocky just bends low and mauls inside. And Sonny was the kind of fighter who had to be fully in charge before he could destroy anyone. He needs to be faster than he was and cleverer than he was. Rockys going to be landing right hands over the top and working inside. And Sonny won’t have been hit as hard or as often. I think Rocky will land more punches on Sonny than people realise. Whilst Sonny is the most dangerous fighter Ricky faced I would not be surprised if Marciano clubs Sonny down to grind out a win because I don’t see Rocky losing to a single guy Sonny Liston ever beat.
@George Crowcroft Remember when I said Choklab will ignore all parts of your post, in favor of the one he feels he can best refute? This is exactly what I was talking about. Despite Chok throwing me some underhanded curve balls, not only do I knock it out of the park, but I come back and destroy his entire argument, and expose his lies and double standards at play. Now that he's been backed into a corner, his only response to my post, is some meaningless and irrelevant drivel about having a fight on VHS. Take notes my young protege.
Thank you! If everyone else is on the same page, I'd like to say enough is enough. Choklab has been exposed (yet again) and I really have no interest in partaking yet another 100 page war, and I'm actually starting to feel bad for the fool me, George, and others have made of him. I personally don't want to take part in any further mockery being made of Chok. Therefor I have made the decision to call it a day.
trouble is this was the only other part of the post that could conceivably be responded to with any seriousness because the other part was another one of your absolutely monstrous accusations. Was I supposed to respond to this outrage? The only thing that was blown out of the park was common decency. indeed. Take note ...
Better? I don't feel qualified to say. And if I did I'd feel like I'm being condescending. So, I'll just say why I disagree. I don't get it? The guys who gave Rocky issues are the ones who fought on the outside more than the inside. Charles and Walcott had fair inside games, and got a bit deeper than most to let loose their offence, but they both took rounds from Rocky by fighting on the outside. Even Archie Moore, the rounds he won were with his defence and his jab at range. Fighting Rocky on the inside is completely inadvisable. Again, I don't get where you've got that from. Rocky's crouch was better for slipping hooks. The 1-2 was better against it. So was a left hook to the body. Who did Marciano fool into fighting on the inside? The majority of fighters who he beat strayed on the inside of their own accord anyway. Moore, Layne, Charles, Walcott ect. and the ones who fought more at length were the ones who he had the most issues. Hym 'tighter distance'? Marciano's angles were accidental lmao. He swung wildly to wear people down. Don't you think Liston's arcing left hook, and uppercut catch a guy in a crouch? It did the other guy in a crouch, who's defence was much better and footwork much quicker. Why don't you think Marciano can be forced back? He was forced back by men who weren't half as strong as Liston in Walcott and Charles. If them two can get him to step back multiple times, then Liston has his way with him. Y'know that Marciano isn't Liston's smallest opponent? It never hindered Liston's game in real life, why would it here? And I repeat this, the quickest, 2nd most explosive HW ever couldn't get past his jab. I seriously can't see how Marciano does, when he struggled with Archie Moore's and old Louis' and Charles'. It's just not logical. The idea Liston is some Foreman-esc guy who needs to swing to get power is lame to me. It's just inaccurate, since he could throw awesome short shots. Of course he'd find it difficult, everyone below 220lbs is gonna find it difficult. I repeat, Liston's uppercut is gonna find Marciano. So are his hooks. Marciano for all of his efforts can't walk through them for long. I doubt anyone can. Liston wasn't fully in charge vs Williams, he still destroyed him twice. Whilst I agree, there's no way the Liston who beat Williams/Patterson(1)/Valdez ect. ain't losing to anyone who Marciano beat either. Marciano wouldn't even be the best fighter Liston fought, Ali is obviously much better. You need to out-speed Liston, and then you need to back off. Marciano will do neither, and so shall lose. Sorry for taking my time, I wanted to be thorough, and I also had to help my dad with my little brother and sister.
The revelation occurred in Geneva, because that is where Ingemar and his bride, the stunning Birgit who graced his training camps, now reside in a modest apartment while a more commodious home is being built for them in the suburbs. Recent winner of the European heavyweight championship by an eighth-round knockout over Dick Richardson of England, Ingemar is a trim six pounds over fighting weight, does roadwork daily after a long morning's sleep, golfs and swims, and recently succumbed to the blandishments of a couple of waiters at Geneva's M√∂venpick restaurant to play center forward on their soccer team. He seems, in fact, to be more athletically active than he was when he was training for his three Patterson fights. Nor has he by any means retired from boxing. He has even been negotiating for a fight with Archie Moore, tentatively considered for the Tijuana, Mexico bullring, where he would be safe from U.S. and Swedish income tax pursuit. About taxes, which have driven so many fighters into poverty after lucrative careers, Ingemar is now serene. He has his own sizable treasury tucked away in impregnable Swiss banks, his fishing trawlers and real estate in Sweden are productive and, like many another man of means, he has become a patron of the arts. He has begun a collection of abstract paintings, which are on display in his apartment. There is some prospect, though, that the Swedish government will confiscate his fishing trawlers if it decides that he is not a bona fide resident of Switzerland. Despite this outlook, Ingemar is imperturbable. "I have enough in the banks here," he said, waiting for the room to darken and the screen to light up. "I do not worry about such things. Nobody can touch what I have in the banks." The screen brightened and began to show Liston mauling a Golden Gloves opponent to a decision. It was not a stylish performance, even for an amateur. Ingemar turned to the man running the projector. "The film is turning too slow," he said. "Can you speed it up?" "That is normal speed," the man said. Ingemar shrugged and turned to watch Liston against Eddie Machen in a fight that went a full 12 rounds because Liston never could catch up. (Ingemar had knocked Machen out in one round to win his successful chance at Patterson's title.) Liston, doggedly stomping after Machen, seldom could get within serious punching distance of him. And that explained why Ingemar thought the movie projector was faulty. It wasn't the projector. It was Liston. "My God, he is slow," Ingemar said, as Machen easily evaded Liston time after time. Johansson studied in silence as Liston advanced and Machen backed, as Liston missed with left hooks and fell short with straight rights, none of which made him look more than ordinary. Then Liston landed one of his very impressive jabs, the kind that has been described as the best since Joe Louis. "He has a very long left," Ingemar said approvingly. "It is long and strong." "Machen is running all the time," he continued, as the second round progressed much like the first. "It would be better if Machen attacked, because he is the fastest one. To attack is the best guard. As soon as Machen does something, like when he starts a combination, it goes through. But he has no—how would you say it?—desire?" That was the word. Machen's main desire seemed to be for survival. Ingemar remarked that Liston's style in this fight was very much like the one he himself used against Patterson at their third fight in Miami. "And in my opinion," he went on, "it was almost successful. I almost had him." He had, indeed. He was thinking how he knocked Patterson down in the first round, perhaps to be deprived of a quick knockout by the fact that the eightcount rule, normally waived in championship fights, was oddly retained for this one. Patterson took an eight count standing, while Ingemar was forced to stand by at a time when his opponent was most vulnerable. As it happened, the champion had enough time to recover from the effects of the right. Ingemar studied Liston carefully for another round. "It looks as if he did not have the right balance on his body," he said, "and he slings the left hook. I should like to see Rocky Marciano against him. Marciano would have knocked him out. As soon as Machen does something against him he is stopped." All this was true, but Machen never pressed an advantage through the fight. As the 11th round dragged to a close, Ingemar sighed. "I tell you one thing from what I have learned," he said. "I thought Liston was much better. Does not Eddie Machen hit hard any more?" And in the 12th he observed that the timing of a left-right combination (just about the only combination Liston possesses) was "not good." Nor did he think much of Liston's right by itself, for it seemed much too predictable. "A right hand should go like Sugar Ray Robinson's did when he was at the top," Ingemar explained, savoring the memory of Sugar Ray's right exploding out of nowhere. Against Machen, and later against Patterson, Ingemar's own right was thrown in just that way. There was the official decision in favor of a seemingly bewildered Liston, and then Willi Besmanoff, a consistent loser, came on the screen. This was almost a year before the Machen fight and, as Ingemar pointed out, Liston had been slimmer then, which might account for the fact that he also looked faster against Besmanoff, whom he stopped in the seventh round. Ingemar observed that Liston looked strong when Besmanoff closed with him but that neither appeared to know anything about infighting. "Besmanoff just goes in and does nothing," he said. "But Besmanoff looks better than when he was fighting Archie Moore [who twice defeated him in 10 rounds]. Right away I can see that." He gasped as Liston let a perfect knockout opportunity slip by and was himself exposed in the process. "Oh, Marciano would have kayoed him very fast!" he said, thinking, no doubt, that Ingemar Johansson might have done the same with such an opportunity. He admired Liston's jab once more but pointed out that it was too slow, for all its ponderous power, and this meant that a faster fighter would slip it. Liston was missing with his hook, too, Ingemar noted. The never-brilliant Besmanoff was, in fact, slipping the jab and blocking the hook or, at times, moving inside the hook and catching only the force of Liston's forearm. "Liston is very easy to hit with a straight left himself," Johansson went on, watching Besmanoff do it. He remarked that he had been told that no one ever has subjected Liston to a body attack—a fact of some significance, since Patterson's body attack is painfully powerful. He has often used it to weaken opponents for the knockout. "I understand Patterson is counting on that," Ingemar said. "Some friends tell me." After the knockout, which had been increasingly predictable, we adjourned to the bar where, over a Coca-Cola, Ingemar pondered what he had seen.
Sonny Liston was still "Mr. Mysterious" during the 1970's and 1980's. Unforatenly the more one reads about Sonny Liston over the years the less invincible he seems. Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams had him hurt, Eddie Machen bloodied his nose, and he was later humilatingly knocked out by the"hired help"(Leotis Martin) live on National TV in his own backyard(The Continental Hotel in Las Vegas), also Mac Foster reportley had knocked him out in a sparring session.
Doug Jones > Yes, Sonny Liston can punch. But he can't hit anybody that moves. Forget about the bout with Floyd Patterson, as Floyd was frightened and frozen stiff. If you move, Sonny is too slow to follow. He needs to plant both his feet to throw punches. He can't box worth a 'Plug Nickel', and his Camp knows it. He wants to fight guys who can't move {Ingemar Johansson and Zora Folley}, and he'll try to avoid Ernie Terrell, Eddie Machen and me. He'll fight Cassius Clay, only because he will get about $1,000,000 because of the gate attraction. I'm not afraid of that 'boat shoe clown'. He's so slow and fights like a clod. Johnny Summerlin Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and let him hit you. But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing. Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that, Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal. How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.
No Sonny is not a wide arc throwing Foreman esc guy. But he does use long range forward momentum as he comes in using straight shots from way out. He was used to using his reach first on the way in then shortening his blows the closer he got. Often Sonny could knock a man Too far back from a distance. I think he loses this distance punching down here. That’s what I’m saying. He’s giving up distance to punch down. Logically yes Sonny’s short uppercuts and hooks can hit an ordinary fighter who is coming forward with his head low. Certainly Sonny can connect inside, the problem is at the range where he can land these kinds of blows, Rocky can reach Sonny first and Outland Him at a greater force. It’s up close where Rocky has more leverage. No doubt about it Sonny can have success. I just think Liston is getting hit more than he’s used to and harder than he’s used to.
The guys who gave Rocky issues were the ones who stood their ground, countered him at a closer distance. Walcott and Charles feinted him, beat him to the draw, turned him and forced him to lead. Rocky was a master at hunting a guy down and imposing himself on them. But the guys who met him at the centre with quick hands did best. can you list the ones who fought Rocky successfully at distance? I thought Rocky always drew everyone into giving up their distance to meet him inside, but I am quite happy to review segments of film that demonstrate your point here.