Sonny Liston vs Ingemar Johannson 1959

Agromonte, Satterfield, Dick Richardson, Machen, Daniels, Cleroux, Ali, Liston 2x, Terrell, Chuvalo, Mac Foster, Blue Lewis, Jack OHalloran, Terry Daniels, Ted Gullick several of which were televised. And then when you look at where he was rated when he had those bog fights and his performances and you cant sit there and claim the guy was being ducked left and right. Not to mention the fact that he rarely ever fought of Texas. Its absolute revisionist history to act like Williams was setting the world on fire at the time. He would pad his record, move up the ratings by knocking over stiffs, get a fight with a contender and more often than not hed lose those big fights. But when he was getting fights with established names and guys who were considered comers or fringe guys I fail to see how he can claim he was ducked. Why because he wasnt handed a title shot without having to climb the ladder? String three or four wins over contenders together in that era and youd get it, he couldnt do that. Its one thing for your promoter to claim you are being ducked, its another thing for your promoter to match soft in the safe confines of home, pad your record, and then yell loud and long that your being ducked for publicities sake.

 

Pretty good for a Williams level fighter. But not enough to make comparisons with more established elite level heavyweights.

Williams was never on the level of a 1959 Johansson.

 

But we werent debating whether Williams was “pretty good”. Williams didnt do anything remarkable power-wise in stopping Miteff, thats the point. It had been done with less trouble earlier and would be done with less trouble again.

 

back then, you couldn't do nothing and get a title shot. Lots of great guys never got them, so to say Williams didn't have to climb the ladder is absurd, although there were certainly guys more worthy of a title shot in '66.

 

Liston wins by ko

There is no question about it all

 

exactly

 

Williams faced Machen during the best period of his career and all he could get was a draw. Ingo destroyed Machen.

That right hand of Ingo was more dangerous than anything in William's arsenal imo.

 

There were more worthy guys every year.

 

I didnt say he didnt have to climb the ladder. My point was he SHOULD have had to climb the ladder but couldnt because he couldnt string together enough wins over contenders. You actually have to beat contenders to get title shots. In fact Williams shot at Ali was handed to him if you want to split hairs. He hadnt done jack **** to deserve a title shot when he fought Ali except pad his record against a bunch of has beens and never weres. The same as he always did. You always hear all of this bull**** bandied about in regards to Williams and thats all it is: bull****. Nothing in his record or performances backs up the weird cult status around him among some guys.

 

I would not like to get into a discussion about Williams power. You said he never beat anyone unrated which simply isn't true..

"Rischer the ninth ranking heavy "

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VQdLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CiMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1214,5593759

Rischer in one attempt, did what Moore couldn't do in FIVE.

 

This is ridiculous. Machen was the highest rated heavyweight not named Sonny Liston. Williams pushed him to his limit, got a very questionable draw in which most thought he won. The judge who didn't score the fight a draw had Williams clearly ahead, (no judge scored it for Machen), as did the AP. To dismiss the result as "all he could get was a draw" is very disrespectful and demeaning.

 

The man who'd done it "with less trouble earlier" was also a huge puncher and it was Miteff's 13th pro fight and he had been fighting for a year. The person who'd done it "with far less trouble again" was Jerry Quarry after Miteff had JUST come off a near 6 year retirement. Funny you seem to have omitted this. Let's at least TRY to be fair.

 

It’s only very disrespectful or demeaning if you are seeing Williams as a world beater.

In truth Williams was a good honest name in the division. A good servant to the sport. Kept boxing alive in Texas. He’s right up there with Henry Clark and Stan Ward with long careers just outside of the elite.

 

You can hem and haw all you want but the ratings for that month of the NBA which was the only rating body that mattered dont agree with you. You quote bull**** ring magazine ratings all you want but those arent official and NEVER had a baring on who got a title shot. Period. So no, Williams never stopped anyone who was rated and frankly even if Miteff, having won 1 of his last 4 was rated by anyone am I supposed to be impressed by Williams in stopping him? Or Rischer? No, Im not. Neither of those guys was bulletproof and both were fringe guys who were in and outers at best. Which was exactly my point, when he stepped up he couldnt get KOs. Am I wrong?? Do you consider Miteff and Rischer a step up from the other fodder that Williams stopped? Of course not. And Williams getting a draw against Machen in 1962 is hardly as impressive as Johansson nearly killing him in 1958 when he was in his prime and undefeated. By the time Williams got to him and couldnt beat him hed already lost to Folley, Liston, and even LHW Harold Johnson. Which is exactly my point, for a guy with such incredible power where are the big KOs over classy competition?? In destroying Patterson and Machen Johansson not only defeated a better class of competition than Williams ever did but he knocked them out, proving his big power. Williams never did that.

 

Williams took on the highest rated contender outside of Sonny Liston, did enough to get the verdict on most people's crowd along with the vast majority of the crowd, the AP, and one judge comparing to none of the above scoring the fight for Machen. Almost nobody (I have not been able to find one person who actually thought Machen won) gave the fight to Machen. To use this to criticize Williams is truly bizarre.