My Own Re-Evaluation of Benny Leonard - P4P Sense

Total record of 186-22-9, with 15 of those losses very early in his career (IE: before a world level win), and then one more at the very end of his career to a prime ATG WW in Jimmy McLarnin and another on a very controversial Disqualification. So that's 17 of 22 losses which can be accounted for. Holy ****.

The other losses (which happened in his prime) came to Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh and Johnny Killbane twice. The final loss is a little later on, to Willie Ritchie.

Looking at that résumé, which really is as deep as they come, the first (genuinely) noteworthy win I can pull out is the fight with an aging Philadelphia Pal Moore, who had beaten Jim Driscoll, Battling Nelson, and Johnny Dundee among others.

The next is a Italian born Rocky Kansas, who's for my money a top 20-25 LW and probably a top 120 P4P fighter. Afterwards there's the fight with LW champion Freddie Welsh. Welsh is a top 10 LW and top 50 P4P in my mind, and would've been a title fight win of the press didn't score it. Either way, Leonard bags another win over an ATG. He'd repeat this a little over a year later, in which time he'd already lost to Welsh. This third fight with Freddie meant he was now the LW champion, and the man in quite possibly the strongest lightweight era ever (although it'd be my second choice). He'd avenge his loss to ATG Johnny Dundee that year too.

Two months later he'd take on former two time conquerer Johnny Killbane, a fight which he'd win in 3 rounds. Killbane being a top 10 FW ever and a top 50 P4P guy, he's also someone who has a 9 year title reign at 126. Very underrated fighter. And an excellent win. He'd later follow up this win two more over top 5/6 welterweight of-all-time, Jack Britton. Then a few months later he'd beat Patsy Cline, fresh of his win over Dundee. He'd take on elite LW contender, Willie Jackson, who had beaten Dundee (multiple times, including a KO1) and took a decision vs Kansas.

Leonard would take on Ted Kid Lewis, resulting in a draw, in a fight which the newspapers say could go either way. Had Leonard won this, and bagged the other title win over Britton (the bogus DQ I mentioned earlier) he'd be a lock for top 5 P4P.

He'd beat Dundee (top 20 FW/Top 120 P4P), Jackson and more tough men of the era, before losing a decision to Ritchie. A loss which he'd avenge two months later. He'd also beat Cline, Dundee (again... twice) and beat one Soldier Bartfield. An ATG résumé hidden beneath a spotted record. Bart would actually beat Lewis, Britton, Mike Gibbons and Harry Greb... Leonard would beat him 4 times. The Ghetto Wizard also grabbed wins over note-worthy challengers like Ritchie Mitchel and Charlie White. Leonard also repeated some of the wins, Dundee and Kansas.

Now, Leonard's first career is winding down at this point. He'd already lost that DQ to Britton, and was gearing towards retirement. At this point, he took on up and coming ATG southpaw Lew Tendler. He beat the man who beat Mitchell, Dundee and Ritchie, twice, and both of these win came by decisions in title fights.

**** yah I like brackets... now of that's not an ATG résumé, I don't wanna see what is. I consider someone as 'prime' if I can't discredit a loss (based on age) during that period. Now, I think this makes Leonard eligible from 1914-1923, a 9 year period is very impressive. Not many can sustain this level of activity (over a 100 fights) and stay at an ATG level of fighting during that time. Another little thing which should highlight his greatness, is that Ray Arcel himself called Benny Leonard the best LW ever. And this is a man who trained Roberto Durán. He also said he's one of the two best he ever saw (with Robinson) but had the best 'mental energy' by some distance.

Benny Leonard was very much a stylist of that era. But it's evident he was the best of them. His jab came from his mid section; fast and snappy. His defence was largely based on quick head-movement and having his hands and feet in the perfect position to offset his opponents. A lost art. Leonard liked a Larry Holmes-esc manoeuvre when he shifted his weight backwards, and then let loose a right uppercut on a dipping head.

An analyst, and man who's greatest asset was without question his brain. He'd map out blueprints to beat his opponents. He knew that people could do to him what he did to them, so he learnt to build a backdoor in his strategy, so to speak. If Benny Leonard could map out blueprints to beat world level fighters, why couldn't one do it him? Well, the reasons are that: #1. Leonard was by far the savviest LW at the time, and the flashes of brilliance he shows on the limited footage prove this. #2. is that Leonard's lexicon was so complete, he could change his style at a whim. This is seen when he starts to change from his normal upright boxing stance to a tidy in-fighter with mastery in the clinch. You can train for one version, then have to fight the other and Leonard was good enough to beat you with either.

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So I made this thread on account of me rehashing my LW list. I figured why not have a couple cursory Boxrec's, review tapes, read reports ect. and this turned into hours of Benny Leonard related fun. Which in turn, led to me definitely having him #1 LW, and now probably top 10-12 P4P. I found out a lot of great wins I knew nothing about today and figured why not turn my notes into something 'presentable' and share what I've found out.

What are your thoughts?

 

I agree he’s the #1 all-time at 135. He dominated a golden era and had great longevity. He probably would have reigned for a few years but made a promise to his mother. The welterweight DQ wasn’t that bogus though. Most felt he was on the way to losing that fight. It doesn’t hurt his standing all that much though. He’d already beaten Britton, albeit in non-title newspaper decisions. I think Leonard is a lock for all-time top of 10. Could probably go anywhere from 5-8 for me. Very technical fighter. I wish there was something more in depth written on his life/career. The only book I ever found was that one by Nat Fleischer.

 

I think he belongs p4p top 10 frankly. And being #1 at 135 is certainly possible though Roberto Duran has a case too

 

Well, the report I read was that it was an even fight, with Leonard edging it and the referee had a large bet on Britton. Seemed very suspicious imo. But yeah, I agree it doesn't really hurt his standing, but his standing would rocket up had he got that, and the Lewis fight.

Yeah, I always liked Benny. Very interesting guy, I'd say he's the best Jewish fighter ever (although Ross isn't far behind).

Personally I'd say the Ike Williams (38-48ish) era was the best 135lbs era, but the talent was almost too deep. No-one could emerge as the clear best without suffering far too much. Whereas Leonard had dominance, longevity and consistency in what undoubtedly a top 3 era at 135. And it's not like that's a division with a short amount of great eras.

 

In Fleischers book, he said he was there and that Britton has been out in front by quite a bit and though Leonard did hurt him, he perhaps was frustrated and hit him while down. Most seem to back up that claim.

Agree on Leonard being the best Jewish boxer with Ross second. I think there’s distance between them and then between Ross and #3 which I’d assume is Ted Kid Lewis. Abe Attell in the mix too I suppose.

 

Well, very contrasting reports on that fight then.

I'd put Lewis over Attell.

 

Great post, @George Crowcroft.

It's always been a bit of a puzzle to me why Benny is continually ranked behind Pep in all-time lists. I can only guess at the reasons - maybe the fact that Leonard was the last all-time great (more or less) whose record is littered with 'No Decision' contests which were soon to be fazed out? Despite the amount of No Decision fights on his record, Leonard's inside-schedule wins against the likes of Welsh, Kansas, Mitchell, White, Kilbane etc. show that he didn't need that safety net to be great.

Monte Cox wrote a good few years back that in his opinion Leonard was one of five men who could legitimately claim to have the best or most complete pure record in boxing history, and he wasn't far off the truth in writing that. I also think that Benny (along with Tunney, Gans and maybe someone like Young Corbett II) was one of the first pioneers of the gloved era who was instrumental in aiding the transition to the styles we've become familiar with in the 'modern age', much more so than someone like James J. Corbett who I find to be one of the most scandalously overrated fighters in history....But that's another story!

No doubt that Benny had a tougher talent pool to come through than Duran at 135: Welsh and Tendler might be more or less comparable with Buchanan and De Jesus, but underneath that the division boasted a bit more depth in Leonard's time. And while he didn't add the Welterweight title, let's not forget he does have wins over a great Welter in Britton and the draw with Lewis, so it's not as if his exploits at 147 are that inferior to Duran's (of course, Duran has a couple of legacy-boosting wins at 154 and 160 to help his cause, too). A terrible shame that Leonard had that lapse in discipline against Britton when the Welter title was on the line, because if he'd have brought that one home the idea of leaving him out of a pound for pound top ten would probably seem impossible.

I've switched them around a hell of a lot, and no doubt will do again....But right now I'd probably put Leonard a shade ahead of Duran at 135, but maybe Duran just ever-so-slightly higher overall. But there's basically nothing between them. Either way Leonard deserves to be, at the very least, on the cusp of a top ten pound for pound. I think I'd have him something like #9 as a rough guess.

 

Yeah, I agree on the Pep < Leonard issue. I think Durán is definitely better P4P, but I'd give Benny the nod at 135. Welsh imo is much greater than Buchanan and DeJesús, and Tendler is on their level. It's a rough list, but I reckon my top 15 P4P would be:

#15. Jimmy Wilde
#14. Barney Ross
#13. Joe Gans
#12. Willie Pep
#11. Packey McFarland
#10. Benny Leonard
#9. Archie Moore
#8. Bob Fitzsimmons
#7. Muhammad Ali
#6. Roberto Durán
#5. Sugar Ray Robinson
#4. Ezzard Charles
#3. Henry Armstrong
#2. Sam Langford
#1. Harry Greb

I also think that you're right re: innovation. I'd add Bob Fitzsimmons to that list though, plenty of fighters TODAY use his techniques, specifically his shift and milling.

 

John Dundee

Philadelphia Pal Moore has more losses than wins three years leading up to the fight. So it is not a name in one's resume that we could included for an ATG lightweight fighter.

Rocky Kansas - Top 20 LW? He has never won a series against a great fighter. More likely Top 40-45 LW

Freddie Welsh - this is the biggest name in his resume and also his biggest win having to KO a great champion. Top 50 P4P might be pushing him to hard as he is not even top 5 in 1920s (Greb, Leonard, McLarnin, Walker, Tunney, Loughran, Dempsey)

Johnny Kilbane - he is featherweight afterall

Jack Britton - Britton will later avenge this loss

Pasty Cline, Barney Adair, John Dundee, Willie Ritchie, Lew Tendler, Billy Townsend, John Clinton, Kansas - this is his body of work during his title reign.

Ike Williams meanwhile have Zurita, Burton, Bolanos, Larkin, Dawson, Jack, Flores, Bratton,Gavilan

I feel that Benny is a little overrated while Ike Williams in extremely underrated.

 

Does he not have enough 5 star wins for your taste?

 

5 star or 4 star that would a good assessment of the quality of fighters
3 stars and below should totally be ignored.

 

Leonard is not mentioned enough in the all time pound for pound discussion. He was truly amazing, both in record and on what film we have on him. I put him second to Duran at 135, with Canzoneri and Gans pulling up the rear. If we're going to head to head, Ortiz, JCC and May are in there.

 

Great post! He is my number 1,his resume is so deep.

Excellent p4p list btw.

 

The Britton fight is believed to be the basis of the plot for the Hemingway story,"Fifty Grand".