Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

Bottom line whom should we believe?
Don Dunphy who began calling fights with the Louis v Farr fight
Jimmy Cannon one of the most respected boxing writers of all time.
Eddie Futch one of, if not the greatest trainer of all time.
Bill Heinz a highly respected boxing journalist and author.
Red Smith a first class boxing writer .
Billy Conn all time great Light Heavyweight champ who fought Louis twice.
Jack Dempsey all time great heavyweight champ who said he suspected the outcome might be as it was and so did not bother to watch it live.
Joe Louis all time great champ.
Mills Lane great well respected referee.
Gene Ward Daily News boxing columnist
George Chuvalo the durable contender who fought Ali twice.
Peter Wilson the UK's premier boxing writer at the time.
Jerry Izenberg the award winning boxing writer .
These men between them have seen literally hundreds and hundreds of fights.Several of them were champions in their own right.
In the opposite corner to them we have Houdini, who according to him," lived through those times"and gathered audiences around him whilst he worked out on a treadmill in his father's garage.

It's a toughie, and maybe I'm just being perverse, but I'm going to go with the aforementioned experts and not .
"The KIng Of The Treadmill"
Below is an 1916 interview with Izenberg, a very close friend of Ali's, in which he discusses the phantom punch and what Ali said when Liston went down.

This content is protected

 

It says it all really, that in that interview Izenberg gives a different version of what Ali said than the version he gave in his book.

 

The gist is the same and he is speaking there 51 years after the event when he covered the fight for the Newark Star.The man is in his 80's now.I must say I find your adamant refusal to take his remarks to their logical conclusion wilful in the extreme.

 

Here's what Izenberg actually heard in 1965. He gives it as "Get up you sucker... get up you sucker..."

<img src="https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Izenberg-Clay-Liston.png"/>

 

Izenberg says he heard these words."Get up sucker.Get up. Nobody will believe this". page 58." Once Were Giants " What is in that piece is only a part of the quote, the full quote is in his book.
I think if you had a signed confession from Liston who could just about sign his name, you would dismiss it out of hand..

 

I'd believe a signed confession, or something documented in one of the major sports magazines of the time. Neither exist.

Though I'll always have a weird feeling about that fight, the movement of Ali's body and the face he made as he threw the punch seem to point to a punch that came out of nowhere (another example of this is the not-exactly-Shavers right Snipes knocked down Larry with).

Judging by the same variables, it looked like an average counter right. He didn't have his full weight behind it, but you can see shoulder and hip rotation. I think the fact that Ali was capable of landing so many punches kind of numbed him to registering that punch.

Timing, speed, a modicum of technically-sound force, and placement.

 

"we learned their had very definitely been a fix in that fight." - William Roemer FBI agent.

Source:

This content is protected

35:53

 

Well, of course. You've clung to the infallibility of the story Izenberg told decades after the fight despite having it pointed out to you that it contradicts every ringside report. Why would it change your mind to learn that it contradicts his own ringside report?

 

He wrote what he heard in the Newark Star for which paper he was ringside why do you keep insisting he wrote it years later?
It doesn't contradict any ringside report at all, Walcott said he heard Ali shout ," Get up Get up" and he was rather busy at the time!
Pacheco said he heard him say," Get up Get up you sucker nobody will believe this".

You posted half a quote which has...… after it, which indicates there is more !
Bottom line I'm not here to try and convince you of anything I don't even think signed affidavits could do that! You can't argue against pedantry!

 

Okay.

Here is the Newark Star-Ledger's entire coverage of the fight from the 26th and 27th of May 1965, including three pieces by Jerry Izenberg. Please point out where he gives the "Nobody will believe this" quote. Take your time, I'll wait.

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_37 a.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_37 b.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_38 a.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_38 b.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_39 a.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-26_39 b.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-27_27 a.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-27_32 a.png
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Soldeed/Newark_Star-Ledger_1965-05-27_32 b.png

 

Larry Merchant has just done an interview on boxing life stories podcast and he is interviewed about the phantom punch.

Larry loves the sport so much that he doesn’t want to admit Liston took a dive under mob influence. He doesn’t even want to admit he knew the members of the mob who arranged it were part of the mob.
He sticks to the party line because he doesn’t want to cause damage to the sport. What a professional Larry is.

However everyone can see with their own eyes that was a dive. As well as the fact that Listons involvement with the Mob is well documented

 

There was an official investigation into the JFK assassination that found that lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald did it.

However, no one to this day believes it was a lone Lee Harvey Oswald. Many now know it was CIA with deep state involvement.

Many official investigations are cover ups.

 

Or maybe Merchant doesn't believe it was a dive. In fact, maybe it wasn't a dive. Liston was ready to fight when the ref nearly called the fight back on...not the sign of someone who threw the fight at all.

 

did ali ever knock a man again with one punch?

 

He ruined both Jimmy Ellis and Ron Lyle with one punch. Not sure about knock out. But you never know with heavyweights, ask any knowledgeable trainer about that.