1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

There have been WAY sicker threads than this one, man. Like all the threads with Razor Ruddock. Most any decent fighter would slaughter the overrated bum.

 

Because if Bert Cooper could knock down Holyfield, then surely Tyson would destroy him.

Because if McCall could beat Lennox Lewis, than surely Vitali Klitschko could.

Because if Henry Cooper can badly knock down this Cassius Clay guy, than what chance does he have against Sonny Liston?

And on, and on, and on.

Fighters have bad nights. Your logic of judging a great fighter by his worst fight is poor. I suppose if Marciano had the flu or something, so maybe we should put that in the title.

 

Did I say Marciano had a bad night? Because I don't think he did. He just met a truly good fighter in LaStarza, but a fighter who had clear vulnerabilities, and he still struggled with LaStarza. I also happen to think that one of Holyfield's best nights was vs. Cooper because of the knockdown.

 

Then why do you think Foreman was more successful?

 

Prime, Healthy Cleveland Williams vs Rocky Marciano with covid 19 who needs an oxygen tank in between rounds.....who wins???

 

An ad hoc explanation is an explanation given after your original position has been shown to be incorrect. Often times, they can be valid. It is invalid when the explanation given is illogical or unfalsifiable.

For example, say my car won't start. You tell me it's my battery. So I put a new battery in my car and it still won't start. Then you say, then it must be your alternator. That would be an ad hoc explanation that is valid because we can test it.

If you tell me that if I pray to Allah and he will answer my prayers and I pray that Mike Tyson stops Evander Holyfield in 5 and then Holyfield ends up stopping Mike Tyson in 11 and then I say "I thought you said that praying to Allah works" then you say to me "It does but it has to be his will to grant your prayer" that is an invalid ad hoc explanation because it explains nothing, raises more unanswerable questions and there's no way to test the explanation or check to see if it's correct.

 

good post. Things need to be understood about levels.

i think other contenders could do with a revival. Not just Williams.

I have always said Williams is best suited to being compared to Pat Comiskey and Charlie Retzlaff. Two exciting heavyweight punchers nobody talks about who were just as good.

 

I'll still take Rocky but it would be close.

 

If you think that one of Holyfield's BEST nights was getting knocked down by a limited fringe contender, that says about all we need to say about your judgement.

I said that he had a bad night against LaStarza, because he did. He beat much better guys, and stopped the man in a rematch.

I notice that you didn't bother to acknowledge all the quotes about Marciano's deceptive defense. It is so odd that you are arguing vigorously about a fighter that you don't know the first thing about. I am happy to keep this up all the live-long day, because NOTHING that you say can put Williams in the league of the undefeated legend-killer Rocky Marciano. Keep comparing those wins to Richardson and Miteff to Walcott and Charles. Good luck with that.

We have established here that Williams beat some fringe contenders, he had a fan friendly style with power, and he got some props from various good fighters for being a game loser. More power to him on being a respectable heavyweight contender, who is simply not in the same universe as Rocky Marciano.

 

chin

 

I only said that Williams' skill level exceeded Marciano's. Marciano's best attributes were his power and his chin, neither of which are trained abilities.

 

And I showed you otherwise. You didn't bother to learn.

 

Will address this tomorrow. Heading off to bed.

 

He really didn’t struggle with Lastarza in the second fight. Lastarza won a few close rounds but it was pretty obvious what the outcome would be. That being said how could you compare styles of Lastarza and Williams? Nothing alike. Lastarza had much better boxing skills and chin. With a lot less power and size. Comparing apples to oranges.

 

Because these guys don’t watch Marcianos fights they won’t understand that half of what might of made somebody as stylish as Lastarza more successful was not achievable for somebody who always fought like a tall powerhouse like Williams did. They can’t know it. Because they don’t watch the fights. It is not as simple as saying here is a big guy, here is a little guy, the big guy can do what the little guy does but the little guy isn’t big enough to do it. They don’t understand that great fighters have a knack of working out who is going to land first. Or that what one man can only do to a no hoper won’t translate upon a great fighter.

To beat Marciano you had to counter him at his distance then turn him. The way Holyfield beat Tyson.

Williams is not going to do this. Williams is going to aim to overwhelm Marciano from above. He’s just going to tee off, like he always did. And he will get his block knocked off trying to do it.

Rocky will either draw Williams down to his level and catch him first or crowd in low, minimising Williams longer range, shutting the distance just like Satterfeild did, Then bingo!

Rocky was a master of dictating a distance the other guy can’t fight at. It wasn’t physical. It was awkward but it worked.