Who's Greater: Roberto Duran or Muhammad Ali?

My #6&7 P4P, and the hardest part of my all-time top 10 to split. Both of these two have storied careers which will be talked about for decades to come. However this should be quite a self-explanatory question TBH, but here's my take on their respective achievements:

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An absolute animal, and the primed, hundred and thirty-five pound version, is my personal pick for the best ever. He is, IMO, the greatest LW ever, bar-none. Wins over Kobayashi, Buchanan, DeJesús, Thompson, Ishimatsu, Bizzarro Ortiz and Fernandez cement this, along with the H2H stature I hold him in. Although that's just his LW résumé, on top of those he has wins over Mamby, Brooks, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore and Iran Barkley. All this, and I haven't even mentioned his crowing achievement. Sugar Ray Leonard is, IMO, a top 15 P4P fighter, and a lock for top 3 at WW. When Duran jumped up two weights and beat him, he scored what is indisputably the best win ever, IMO.

He also holds a win over Ernesto Marcel. I wouldn't look too far into this, since both were really green, but Marcel would go on to be a top 10 FW and an absolute monster H2H. Due to the circumstances of the fight, I'd say it's probably akin to Choynski's win over Jack Johnson, or Torrecampo's win over Manny Pacquiao. In other words, it's a good win, but not something you'd get the champagne out over.

Despite being the 'worst', H2H, of the Fab 4, the reason he's cited as the greatest is because he's the smallest. Beating Leonard and doing the best against Hagler whilst the smallest is very important to his legacy, and no less than the fact he's a four weight champion. In fact, IIRC; he was the first non-American to be one (a four weight champ).

Now, it'd be highly disingenuous to ignore Durán's losses. The infamous 'No Mas' affair is probably the third most famous fight in boxing history (ironically after The Rumble in the Jungle and the Thrilla in Manilla) and Duran came out on the wrong side of history here. After apexing in the first Leonard fight, Duran ballooned up and had to cut an unholy amount of weight. The return bout with SRL led to a bloated, unhealthy Duran getting clowned and schooled before Duran's bully-mindset kicked in and he decided he wanted no more. Hence, 'No Mas'. After this his interest in the sport waned and he came in in shape infrequently.

Is it fair to write-off the losses to Sims, Laing, Benitez, Leonard II and Hearns as a combination of a lack of motivation/discipline, and him being past his prime? Personally, I think it is, but given what he'd do after these losses; I think it's a very interesting debate.

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Ahhhh the self-proclaimed Greatest. Not that he is, but he's close! The GOAT HW with virtually no arguments, for mine. In his prime he was an athletic freak, with an uncanny sense of distance and Einstein-level ring IQ. Mix in his granite chin, decent power and sharp straight punching and you have the best HW H2H ever IMO.

That's not why he's the GOAT HW IMO, though. It's his endless list of names from the best era in the division's history. Jones, Patterson, Chuvalo, Williams, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, both Foster's, Norton, Wepner, Bugner, Lyle, Young, Shavers and Neon Leon, and again, this is WITHOUT his best wins. His crowing achievements are clearly the wins vs Liston, Foreman and Frazier. That, right there, is a five-piece collection over a third of my remaining HWs. If Ali is #1, that means he's beaten a third of the other nine.... madness!

As a HW, he obviously couldn't jump weights, but he could beat guys both bigger and smaller than him. Which he did. He also made a combination of 19 title defences during both of his careers.

Unlike Duran, Ali has a fair amount of controversy around these wins. Especially as his legend grew, and ability shrank. Liston II, Young, Norton III, Shavers and Frazier II & III are less impressive due to a multitude of differing reasons. He also has a couple of losses which aren't a good look. Losing to Spinks and Norton is bad IMO, albeit not as bad as losing to Sims and Laing.


So? What say you? I think Duran was a better fighter, and didn't reach his ceiling. Imagine if fights with Arguello, Cervantes, Benitez and Pryor were made during Duran's prime! That's another 4 ATGs I firmly believe he would've beaten, and all four were (to my knowledge) talked about in the late 70s/early 80s. However, despite this, I think Ali was slightly greater. He doesn't have the plethora of losses to be excused and his résumé is a bit deeper. There's also no fighters Ali really missed during his era.

 

Yeah, I don't think any HWs but those two are top 20 P4P. But these two are as close as it gets IMO.

What's absolutely nuts is that even if Duran had those other 4 wins I mentioned, I'd still only be able to say he's top 3 P4P. That's how great I see Langford and Greb as being.

 

Maybe, but I think criticizing Ali in the 70s is like criticizing Louis in the 40s. There's situations which kind of excuse bad looks if you get my drift.

Louis did take years out and came back not as good, it just happened later. If he'd have been forced to go through the gauntlet Ali did in that state I don't this would even be a debate. Although I'd rather this not be a thread about Louis and Ali.

 

What the ****, people? I have the 2nd most controversial fighter on the forum AND a HW in my title and we don't even get a page per hour? How ****ing rude!

 

I don't think any version of Liston in the 60s would beat FOTC Frazier, although I think a late 50s version would.