1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

I think catchwtboxing hates Cleveland Williams more than serbianloudmouth, choklab, and inmemoryofjakelamotta.

 

Making Satterfield and Machen sound like nobodies is dumb. Satterfield beat Harold Johnson, which is no fluke. Machen was an awesome fighter; "only a draw with Machen" is a ridiculous thing to say. If you pick on Williams and Machen for fighting to a draw, then you must also say something bad for Zora Folley who held Machen to a draw. You must also bash Jerry Quarry for losing to Machen. You most also think Liston was a terrible fighter for getting a decision that he maybe didn't deserve. If Machen is a bum, so are Folley, Quarry, and Liston. No catchwtboxing, Miteff isn't a legend. It's just guys like me and swagdelfadeel appreciate even the obscure fighters. You put up all that proof of stuff guys said commendating Marciano, there's just as much in Williams' favor. But no hard feelings, I've never intended this discussion to sound like I thought Williams would ever beat Marciano, because he wouldn't. I just think he is underrated and I think a fighter shouldn't be judged by what his record looks like on paper.

 

Well prime Archie Moore obliterated a guy called Embrell Davison. A big guy with a winning record who had twice knocked out Marty Marshall . And then Marshall rebounds from these shattering losses to Davison to baffle a young Sonny Liston.

I think this is worth noting. Clearly during his development Sonny had a way to go before he was going to overshadow Archie Moore at heavyweight.

Even after his incarceration when Sonny’s career finally was finding momentum leading up to his breakthrough fight against Valdes he come up against Bert Whitehurst.

Bert Whitehurst was twice stopped by Archie Moore before lasting the full 10 rounds with Sonny Liston. In fact Bert fought Archie and Liston back to back and It was Archie who did the better job on him.

So Archie was no slouch at heavyweight was he?

 

It dosnt have to be hatred. The guy just has a different belief to you. His belief is that Williams didn’t reach the heights against good fighters. I don’t think it is hateful to believe that. I think the evidence is strong that Williams was not quite championship level. His punch just was not a factor against good fighters. You can still enjoy a guy as fighter within his level. And you can defend a theory that a certain guy isn’t championship level if the evidence supports it like it does here.

 

I don't mind that his opinion differs from mine, and I don't know why everyone thinks that I do, but he's rude when he shouldn't be. He shouldn't be calling people stupid and stuff.

 

Moore and Liston both fought Floyd Patterson. Why did the better job?

Moore and Liston both fought Nino Valdes. Who did the better job?

Moore and Liston both fought Frankie Daniels. Who did the better job?

Moore and Liston both fought Willi Besmanoff. Who did the better job?

I'm not sure what any of this is meant to prove... Are you arguing that Moore was a better heavyweight than Liston?

 

I think all the fighters you mentioned rank from good to even great. I like Williams but he’s severely over rated. Having close fights is nice but you need wins. Otherwise you’re a stepping stone which Williams and Satterfield were imo

 

Kevin McBride beat Mike Tyson who many say would beat Joe Louis therefore Kevin McBride decimates prime Louis.

 

I don't hate Cleveland Williams. I think he was a good contender with a hard punch. In fact I wish more of him was on film as he was an entertaining fighter to watch.

Under the right conditions he had the power to stop any heavyweight, even modern day heavies. However, you could say that about men like Bruno, Bert Cooper or Earnie Shavers. I give Cleveland Williams a C+.

 

Don't insult @choklab like that.

 

What about me??

 

Sadly that logic is better than Choklab's.

 

Chok's on a level of his own when it comes to hating Williams. You can't compare.

 

I'm not even gonna bother responding to him. He seems to think parroting the same thing while ignoring the rebuttal, and hurling insults makes him the winner. He's sadly mistaken.

 

In his prime, Williams only lost to Sonny Liston, a H2H monster who happened to be at the top of his game and still gave better than he got for a few rounds. Their is absolutely no shame in that. I don't think any of the other men Williams lost to in his career, would beat him (except Ali) in his prime.