1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

good one

 

Totally agreed. The mention of Jones is crap. Satterfield was a legit fighter, but Williams was green. Williams was knocked out several times from '66 to '71 by Ali, Jones, Lewis, Foster, etc.. You would've been knocked out too were you 40 and in the condition that Williams was in, so cut the crap people.

 

In his prime Williams also lost to Terrell and drew with Machen as well as the shattering losses to Liston. So it’s not quite just Liston he lost to is it? When you think a veteran like Harold Johnson beat Machen, and Ingo flattened him, I am not sure the draw with Machen is up to much. Zora Folley also drew with Machen. He was a good fighter. Do you rate Folley any higher than Williams?

 

I don't think Williams lost to Terrell as I scored that fight for Williams as did many people including the AP. And to answer your question, no I don't rank Folley any higher than Williams. Irrespective of your opinion that drawing with Machen is not "up to much", the draw with Machen was very impressive, considering he was the highest ranked heavyweight not named Sonny Liston, and the majority of the crowd, as well as one judge, and the AP thought Williams was the clear winner.

 

if you don’t rank Folley higher than Williams do you At least rank Foley the equal of Williams?

was the result of a draw that Scott Frank had with Renaldo Snipes just as impressive? Who else was very impressive with their draw?

 

Machen had vulnerabilities like anybody else. You overlooked his good wins though. He beat Nino Valdes twice (not a great fighter, but a tough one), as well as Doug Jones and Jerry Quarry, and then decent tough guys like Bob Baker and Tommy Jackson. The Liston loss is also debatable. Folley was a good fighter too, and other than his chin I would rank him a shade higher than Williams.

 

Not a fair point. Williams and Machen were within the same level of skill (though Machen was more accomplished). Frank was an absolute nobody and Snipes was not.

 

I would think with your approach that Folley would rank high considering all of his big wins.

 

Machen was a very fine fighter. Very fine. But he was bellow championship material. Johansson saw to that.

 

So Machen was more accomplished than Williams who drew with him. Folley drew and beat Machen. Yes I would think Folley deserves to be rated higher than Williams on account of his win over Machen doesn’t he? We can agree on this.

 

I don't agree. Johansson was just a learning experience for Machen. Most fighters will be beaten based on a single vulnerability early in their career. Machen came back from the loss, and he was a great fighter even after the loss. I think Machen could have beaten either Patterson or Liston for the title. I think he was championship material, he just needed to know when to turn on the action.

 

You're not such a bad fellow when you're in an agreeable mood. Folley has lots of other good wins though: Henry Cooper, Doug Jones, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, and Bob Foster. Not saying they were all impressive, but they were all tough cookies in their peaks.

 

That’s what I liked about these guys. They all fought each other. Machen And Foley fought most nearly everybody. They fought often too. Williams fought a lot too. These guys were warriors. They fought whenever they were asked to. And I respect that. Always have.

I just think it’s okay to say they were just lower than the champion echelon of things.

I don’t see a Machen-Foley level man beating a Marciano, or Frazier, or Patterson. And, with respect, I think that is a wholehearted and entirely reasonable thing to say.

And Williams never eclipsed those guys.

 

No I think Williams would've beaten him H2H, and did better against some common opponents they shared. Terrell in particular.

Seriously Choklab? You're asking why Cleveland Williams gets a lot more credit for drawing with the #2 Heavyweight then Frank does for drawing with the unranked Snipes? Jesus Christ. You wonder why people accuse you of dishonesty, and having an agenda.

 

Why would Williams necessarily beat Folley? They both lost to Terrell and Liston in the same way. You might argue that Terrell was stopped in an earlier bout against Williams but then Folley actually beat Machen when all Williams got was a draw with him. Folley also beat Bonavena, Cooper and Jones.

Things are level at best for them. I don’t see how either fighter should leap into the championship mix on this kind of form.