1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

1. Williams beat Machen according to everyone except two out of the three who mattered. The other one had Williams a clear winner along with the vast majority of the crowd.

2. Williams also arguably beat Terrell as well (I scored that fight for Williams as did many others including the AP). In Terrell's next fight, he widely outpointed Zora Folley and beat him more decisively than he could ever beat Williams. Oh and Williams had also knocked out Terrell a year earlier, and despite your attempts to downplay it, that's the only time Terrell was knocked out anywhere even remotely close to his prime, or for the rest of his career for that matter except his very last fight when he had virtually nothing left.

 

Ring had Snipes at #10 for several months before and after he drew with Frank. He rose up several notches with his win over Berbick. KO had Snipes at #7 after Holmes and before Frank. So Snipes wasn't unranked, but he wasn't ranked nearly as highly as Machen was when he fought Williams. Machen was #2 by both the NBA and Ring. Ring had Williams at #8, while the NBA had him at #5 going in to the Machen fight.

Machen and I had the same trainer, Danny Rodriguez, albeit two decades apart.

 

"Eddie Machen, 198, and Cleveland Williams, 211 1/2, ruined their immediate chances for a heavyweight title shot last night with a cautiously fought 10 round draw. Both Machen, the No. 2 heavyweight contender, and Williams, ranked No. 5, climbed into the ring hoping to come out with a clearcut right to challenge the Sonny Liston-Floyd Patterson winner for the title. Machen came out unscarred, Williams had a cut on the mouth and a mouse over his right eye. Williams, a powerful left hooker, shook Machen in the 3rd and 8th rounds. Machen scored heavily with his effective counter-punching." -The Fresno Bee

• Date: 1962-07-10
• Location: Sam Houston Coliseum, Houston, Texas, USA
• Referee: Jimmy Webb 96-96
• Judge: Ernie Taylor 96-96
• Judge: Earl Keel 97-94

Date:
Saturday, April 13, 1963
Location:
Arena, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Rounds Scheduled:
10
Referee:
Pete Tomasco

Official Judging
Pete Tomasco 44 - 46
Jack Styles 44 - 46
Pete Pantaleo 46 - 44
CLEVELAND WILLIAMS
9
9
10
10
10
9
10
9
9
10


95
ERNIE TERRELL
10
10
9
10
9
10
9
10
10
9


96

 

I scored that fight too. in my opinion it was a fair decision. Neither man looked a world beater, but they both gave it everything. Terrell won all the exchanges and landed more jabs on target. Williams had his moments, he kept coming, but he was a step behind all the way in my view. He absorbed more blows than Terrel did.

Seems logical to meTerrell never hit his prime until after losing to Williams the first time. Terrell never beat a good fighter until after losing to Williams. The fight report of the first Williams Terrrel encounter certainly does not describe a full knockout.

“Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, 212, the 6th ranked heavyweight contender, scored a 7th round TKO Tuesday night over young Ernest Terrell, 202, of Chicago in a scheduled 10 round fight. After a slow start, Williams caught Terrell with a left cross in the 3rd round and had the fight his own way from then on. The Chicago fighter had opened a cut under Williams' left eye within the first minute of the 1st round. In the 6th, Williams hit him with a right hook followed by a left cross and Terrell hit the canvas but bounced back up after an eight count. Referee Sonny Liston stopped the bout at 1:47 of the 7th round after Williams had battered Terrell with a series of rights and lefts." -United Press International”

. Terrell turned pro in 1957. He lost one fight in 1958. He lost another fight in 1959. Another fight he lost in 1960. So Terrell was practically losing each year he was active and He still had not beaten a good fighter when he next lost against Cleveland Williams in 1962. After this Terrell was unbeaten for 5 years. During this time he beat Williams in a rematch.

 

A) Talk about rude. If you are going to talk about me, have the guts to quote me so that I know.

B) When people say stupid things like Williams proved himself by beating Mittef and Richardson, they deserve to be called what they are--kind of like it should be pointed out that you are a bit of a chicken **** for calling me out without calling me out.

The entire premise of this thing is stupid, and some of the reasoning is genuinely delusional. A guy whose best wins are Terrell, Mittef, and Richardson, and with better than a dozen losses, does not compare to the only undefeated heavyweight champ, and man with six wins against ATG fighters.

No one "hates" Williams. I hate the foolishness of having to address why he is not in Marciano's league. We don't discuss if Derrick Chisora could beat Joe Louis, or Bert Cooper could beat Muhammad Ali. But somehow there are a number of people on here who like to compare any number of B an C level fighters to Marciano.

Next time, address me directly.

 

Well could Bert Cooper beat Muhammad Ali???

 

Terrell did not win all the exchanges. That's laughable. Williams almost (and arguably did) knock him down in the third round.

I love your logic that the 20 year old last minute substitute Williams wasn't green for Satterfield but the 22 year old Ernie Terrell, who hadn't lost in 2 years, and would be ranked less than a year later was hopelessly green.

Are you trying to make a case that the stoppage was somehow premature? If the bout would have went on Williams would've killed Terrell.
.

Terrell was not losing "each year he was active". His last loss was a split decision to Wayne Bethea TWO years earlier. Are you seriously suggesting Terrell hadn't improved in those two years at all and then suddenly went from being a hopeless novice to a top contender within the year separating his two bouts with Williams? lol

 

it works both ways. You are wanting to disregard Williams shattering loss to Satterfeild.

Whereas Terrell rebounds after his shattering loss to Williams with respectable wins over Amos Johnson, Folley, Machen, Chuvalo And Doug Jones (develops into the second best heavyweight during the reign of Muhammad Ali..) .we cant say this for Williams.

After his shattering loss against the 25lb smaller Satterfeild Williams takes a couple of years out from boxing returns against a bunch of no hopers beffore being dramatically humbled against Liston - the next good fighter he meets since Satterfeild.

After Liston, Williams career picks up like Terrells did after losing to Williams, but he’s not beating guys as good as Doug Jones, Zora Folley, George Chuvalo or Eddie Machen is he? He’s edging guys on points like Billy Daniels and drawing against Machen after being humbled again by Liston.

No I am not saying the stoppage was premature. I am merely pointing out that it was a stoppage rather than a clean cut knockout defeat like the one Williams suffered against Satterfeild.

if a guy loses within 12 months in the first 3 years of his career I see that as one loss a year. The duration between being outpointed by Wayne Bethea and losing to Williams was just over this. One year and four months...or 5 fights later.

I never said Terrell was a hopeless novice. I am saying there is evidence he was still finding his feet as a pro because in two attempts Terrell couldn’t beat a guy called Johnny Gray and had strung just 5 wins over nobody’s since his most recent defeat against Wayne Bethea. His first “almost name guy” Terrell had fought until then.

The record shows that the loss to Williams was a turning point. Terrell went undefeated for 5 years after this didn’t he?

 

I actually thought it was a fair verdict as well.

 

Terrell did lose to a few stiffs to start and end his career, but went on a very excellant undefeated streak from the Williams rematch on thru '66. Williams, Folley, Gerhard Zech, Foster, Machen, Chuvalo, and Jones-all legit competition, were defeated. A few borderline decisions in there, but still a fine streak.

 

I meant you, but I also meant people I'd argued w/ b4, so it was a general address. I like Marciano and still think he beats Williams, but if you want to go to so much trouble to pick on Williams, Marciano's record is ultimately no better. He beat washed up Joe Louis, old Walcott, old Charles, LaStarza and Cockell-nobodies of boxing, and light heavy Moore who had no statistical chance. I don't see Marciano's wins that way, but many do. Marciano's wins are legitimate. Although there are allowances, we can play this game everywhere and make excuses for why a fighter's best victories aren't impressive.

Norton beat Ali, who was in bad shape, and had a broken jaw
Ali knocked out washed up Cleveland Williams w/ atrophied leg
Holmes stopped old, ring-rusty Ali

While a rather concentrated sampling, and a small one, u get the idea. Let's not play that game. Marciano was not as skilled, but stronger, tougher, and higher-stamina than Williams and more accomplished. For those reasons we can hold Marciano in higher regard, I'll leave it at that. Adieu.

 

No hard feelings man, and no disrespect intended. Good argument. I just happen to enjoy watching Williams A LOT.

 

You said me, and that you consider Marciano's record "no better" says anything that anyone needs to know about your judgement on the matter. Ali said that Marciano might have beat him, Frazier put him as number 2 of all time, Foreman put him as #2 of all time...and YOU think he is no better than Clevland Williams. Sure thing.

Fine. We'll squash it.

 

I don't think Marciano's record is bad. I just have heard that argument out there. I don't prescribe to it, but i think it makes a fair case.

 

Archie Moore is one of the best heavy weights to ever live. Not just light heavyweight but heavyweight. Record of like 64-3–1 with the only losses coming from Marciano, Ali, and Patterson when he was 38 and over. Beat the likes of Nino x2, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Bivins x4, Cestac x2,Embrell Davidson, Lavorante, etc. Moore imo is the most loaded guy ever at Hw to not win the belt and was on the best streak of his career when he met marciano. To say he didn’t stand a chance is far fetched.