Prime De La Hoya vs Manny Pacquiao (Hatton Version) @ 140?

All of your posts are laughable.

 

JMM is a great fighter. And I’m not arguing against any of the results between the pair, I’m just reminding people that in 4 fights, he didn’t knock out JMM or clearly win any of them.

Oscar was a great fighter in his prime with elite level skills, and he was considerably bigger than both Manny and JMM, and he’d have been a LMW on fight night.

I can’t see anything that points to Manny stopping him.

Yes, Marg was huge in comparison. But he didn’t have the skills that Oscar did. Also, Marg had just been knocked out by Shane.

Oscar had the size as well as the skills.

Yes, MAB was stopped in their first fight, but not in their rematch.

Manny also had other fights that went the distance.

If he couldn’t knock out a depleted version of Oscar who was at the end if the road, then why do people think he’d have knocked out a prime version? Where’s the logic?

The only guy to knock out Oscar, was an ATG MW who could have been a career SMW-LHW had he have wanted to have been.

 

And I will say again that they were viciously competitive, so using this as a point to suggest he can't beat Oscar when JMM >>>>>>>>Oscar is silly.

No one could see anything pointing to a flyweight being a dominant force at welterweight either. He is a far better fighter than Oscar with superior skills (and a right hand that, when developed, isn't useless). So based on that the idea of Manny maybe stopping Oscar isn't insane. Unlikely, but not insane. It is not insane to suggest a power-puncher who is arguably a top 10 fighter who ever lived has a chance to KO a guy who might just crack the top 30 if people forget a couple names.

The point was that Oscar's size isn't enough to save him and absorb Manny's shots, which you were suggesting that it did.

Moving the goal post, are we? You said he didn't when he did. This is the part where you sheepishly admit you were wrong and move on, NOT try to double down. And citing MAB surviving a rematch he spent most of the fight running away is not the slamdunk you seem to think it is.

While we're on it, what in the blue hell does MAB have to do with any of this?! That if you fight to survive and have enough skill you can avoid a Pacquiao KO even if he has proven he can KO you in the past? If your premise is 'if Oscar fights scared then there's no way Pacquiao can KO him" then I happily submit the argument. Not unlikely; we saw him do just that against Trinidad.

...aaaaaaaaand? So did Oscar, against fighters who were shot, even. Guess he wasn't that elite-level knockout operator you keep saying he is. Do you see how this is an incredibly silly point to make?

We don't know what would have happened because Oscar quit on his stool (which counts as a stoppage, by the way). So where's the logic in saying that he couldn't have stopped Oscar? We are dealing with a bunch of unknowns and what if's here, the difference being that Manny has a history of hurting/ko'ing guys bigger than him and surviving nasty return fire.

THIS is actually a reasonable point that contributes to the argument, and I would say that it suggests it is unlikely for Manny to get the KO (which is what I've been saying the whole time, by-the-by). However, a superior, two-handed, and awkward fighter that only has to worry about a left-hand will have chances that, just because they are unlikely, doesn't mean they are not there.

 

Stiff Jab,

I never said they weren’t.

I just noted that JMM gave him all that he could handle across various weights.

Yet some people think that he would have knocked out a prime version of Oscar, who was also elite, significantly bigger and who was only knocked out once in 45 fights.

Being a better P4P fighter than Oscar doesn’t mean that he’d have beaten him H2H.

I’m saying that Oscar’s size, weight and skills would have been very difficult for Manny to have overcome.

I’m a fan of Manny’s myself and he’s one of the greatest fighters of all time. But a prime version of Oscar would have been a huge challenge for him.

I don’t have to admit that I was wrong. I watched the fights. He scored a TKO in one of the fights.

The point is obvious. Manny wasn’t a knockout machine who destroyed everything in his path.

Oscar was robbed against Tito. He didn’t fight scared. He just thought he’d done more than enough to not take chances at the end of the fight.

Where have I said that he was an elite level knockout operator?

I said that there was a significant amount of fights where Manny didn’t knock out his opponents. Opponents who weren’t as formidable as what a peak version of Oscar would have been.

A prime version of Oscar didn’t even resemble the version who Manny fought, who’d only rehydrated by just 2 pounds.

Oscar quit because he had nothing left to give.

The referee didn’t stop it because Oscar was hurt or on the verge of being knocked out.

If he couldn’t force a stoppage or knock him down or out for a 10 count, then it’s fanciful to think he could have done so against a prime version of Oscar who’d have been a JMW on fight night. It’s illogical.

Okay. I know that you personally haven’t said that you think Manny would have knocked him out. That’s far enough. But a few other people have said that.


I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree and move on.

Good debate.

 

I think Morales was a bit more versatile thap0n de la Hoya. I found de la Hoya too stiff and upright. Although both did have good combinations and found openings, I found morales the better mover with better defense.

 

This has to be one of the easiest 'hypothetical' fantasy match ups ever to pick. Why? Due to Oscar getting his ass whipped when they actually fought, even with everything in his favour.
This is a hypothetical of a fight that actually took place!

 

Hoya was a drained cadaver for that fight.

Roach knew his reflexes were seriously waning 18 months before the fight.

Insert trademark Rick James quote

 

What are you talking about?

Oscar looked terrible against Steve Forbes in the fight before.

He looked ill at the weigh-in.

Everybody, including Freddie Roach, thought that he was going to rehydrate by 14 pounds or more, especially as he’d not hit the weight for years. Yet he only rehydrated by 2 pounds! Think about that. He rehydrated by 9-14 pounds his whole career, but he only put on 2 pounds. Freddie Roach and Floyd Mayweather Snr were both shocked. Roach said he could see IV marks in his arm where they’d tried to rehydrate him. And he was obviously Manny’s trainer. So he wasn’t making excuses.

A prime version of Oscar who fought at 140 pounds, didn’t even resemble the versions of Oscar who fought Forbes and Manny.

Oscar was finished.

It might be a hypothetical fight that took place, but not the one we’re discussing.

It would be like confidently picking Lennox Lewis and Joe Calzaghe to have beaten prime versions of Mike Tyson and Roy Jones, based on the outcome of their fights.

It would be silly to do that.

 

I’m a fan of Manny’s myself. He’s one of the greatest fighters of all time. He’s had a legendary career. But I couldn’t call his win over Oscar a master class, when Oscar was clearly depleted.

I don’t see a fight against a prime version of Oscar playing out the same at all.

 

I know you weren’t mate.

I think it would have been a masterclass had Oscar had been in his prime.

It would have been a truly amazing win.

Again, I personally couldn’t call it a masterclass due to the circumstances.

Oscar was clearly finished. He looked ill at the weigh-in and he only rehydrated by 2 pounds when he always used to rehydrate by up to 14.

 

And you knew this would be the case when the fight was announced?!

 

Manny on points. He'd be too quick for a prime Oscar.

Yes, ODLH wasn't at his best when they fought in 2008, but Manny certainly was. His left hands in particular were on-point. Had he boxed that way against any version of Mayweather, ODLH and many others, he would have beaten them pretty easily.