Prime Larry Holmes vs Mike Tyson

Dude read my reply again. Your swings and roundabouts doesnt even apply here. Bottom line who won the fights? Oh that's right Holmes did. Nothing more to say to you man.

 

Ok wait? Tyson had kicked Kevin Rooney who always kept Mike in shape and had him ready for every fight. He also knew how Mike style worked (because he was also taught by Cus) and he also kept Mike calm when he got frustrated like in the Tucker fight.

You could clearly see a difference in Mike after Kevin Rooney. He started to become a headhunter who gassed after the 6th round. His head movement became a lot worse and his work rate slowed down.

Mike also had no motivation to fight Douglas, he was angry because he had beaten opponents that had won against Douglas and that he didn't want to fight. When he was in Tokyo he partied all night long and was drinking alcohol and taking drugs. He was partying with Bobby Brown and was having sex with Japanese prostitutes to 3:00 AM.

You can't say that Tyson was in his best form coming in that fight. Because he wasn't.

Look at the Douglas fight. He had a tremendous heart. He was getting beaten up every single round but still stayed until round 10 where he took a 4 punch combination to the face and he was on his feet when the fight ended. What does that tell you about his heart?

 

1. I was merely stating that machine readings are a formality, but that just because all those fighters can hit on it, it's not necessarily their hardest punch, it's hard to replicate a boxer's hardest punch. Shavers came out on top, but maybe Tyson didn't hit the machine with his hardest punch? I mean, how does a fighter know it's his hardest? However, I still think Shavers hit harder.
2. I concede that Tyson was a more-well rounded fighter than Earnie. Tyson was much faster, moved better, was tougher, and had much better stamina. I've always thought of Earnie as a scientific slugger, and think he was accurate of a puncher than Tyson (when he was committed to a punch, I'm not talking about those roundhouse rights).
3. I wasn't referring to you specifically as a psycho, just some of the people on here who can't watch their mouths. I personally don't mind calling them psychos.
4. I might be short two dozen, but I was just covering heavyweights. I can go into light heavies, middlweights, and welterweights if you want, and provide another 60 lol.
5. Of your last inquiry about Liston, Bonavena, Young, etc., where those the ones you didn't think made the list? and the rest did? I did kind of use the down, cut and behind as an example of toughness, and although most of the fighters I listed actually were not in those kind of situations, I will say why I thought they were tougher than Tyson, or at the very least, very tough.
Liston-Liston fought Marty Marshall for 4 rounds with a broken jaw, and still got the vote of one of the judges, he suffered a broken nose from Cleveland Williams in round 1 of the first fight, and knocked him out in the 3rd. In the Williams II fight, Williams had Liston hurt and covering up in the 2nd, and Liston came roaring back later that round to stop him. Supposedly the fight with Zora Folley went along the same lines as well.
Bonavena-Bonavena fought many of the best of the 60s and 70s: Folley, Chuvalo, Frazier, Mildenberger, Ellis, Martin, Ali, Patterson, and Lyle. In most of those fights he absorbed lots of punishment and barely flinched. In the case of Bonavena, a criteria I missed that can also be a good test of chin is how difficult it is for one to floor you, and Bonavena was incredibly hard to floor.
Young-He took a ferocious beating by Foreman in round 7, and came back for a UD. Still one of the most courageous moments in boxing imo. He and Norton went to war for 15 rounds and Young was awesome. I will agree that there is not as much film to validate my claim to Young's chin, but in these two fights at least, it is evident.
McCall-Fought Douglas, Tucker, Seldon, Lewis, Holmes, Bruno, and a host of other guys and was never down as everyone knows. I don't even think McCall ever came close to being dropped. That being the primary testimony to his chin, again not a lot of fights where he absorbed a lot of punishment, but Seldon hit on him with lots of good shots for 8 rounds, and McCall was a little behind going into round 9. Good come-from-behind win. Seldon hit McCall with everything and there was never a knockdown in sight. McCall was the Chuvalo of the 90s.
Mercer-As you know, Mercer was only down once in his prime. Mercer brawled with the best of them: Cooper, Damiani, Morrison, Lewis, Witherspoon. All very tough fights. Cooper brought out Mercer's toughness more than anyone. He broke Mercers' jaw and nose, and split his lip in half. Mercer was very behind against Damiani but knocked him out in round 9. Morrison gave Mercer a good pounding in the first 2 or 3 rounds before being brutally stopped a couple rounds later. The fights with Lewis and Witherspoon were back-and-forth slugfests where both men absorbed plenty of heavy shots, and Mercer again proved his mettle. The case for Mercer's chin is very strong.
Machen-I cannot say that I have seen Machen in any of the circumstances I mentioned. Compared to Tyson though, he seemd to take a single good shot better than Tyson did. Bruno hurt Tyson in round 1 in '89; I thought it was a good shot, but not a great one. Machen took a lot of good shots and didn't even move. But fights where Machen appeared durable (imo) where Liston, Doug Jones, Billy Hunter, and Quarry-maybe. He also took a horrific beating vs. Frazier. The case for Machen's chin is a lot tougher to make.
Thomas-I personally don't think Thomas has one of the ATG chins, but he was a tough guy nonetheless. A lot of ebbs in flows against Tillis and Witherspoon, both fights he won. Although he lost to Berbick, he slugged it out most of the way and suffered cuts. The two fights that most impressed upon me his toughness were against Coetzee and Weaver. He broke his hand vs. Coetzee and still earned a draw. Weaver being foremost, he floored Weaver in round 1, and thumbed one eye and cut the other in round 2. Weaver staged a great rally after that. Thomas got slammed with a lot of heavy shots in rounds 3 and 4 in some awesome exchanges, and was cut around both eyes, as well as in the mouth. He got outjabbed in rounds 5 and 6 if i remember correctly, and rallied to stop Weaver in round 8.
Witherspoon-I have personally never been AMAZED with Spoon's durability, but he was in plenty of contests where he absorbed many good shots and never came close to getting hurt. Holmes, Page 1, Thomas, Bruno, Truth Williams, and Mercer are all fights where Spoon's durability is obvious. I can agree though, that I have never seen Spoon in a REALLY bad situation.

In defending my own fighters, I have become somewhat skeptical of some of my choices, but...

 

Yes, I've seen Crusher vs. both. If I didn't see the fights, I would say so. I don't like to comment on fights I've never seen or read about.

 

To fulfill your final request, I wouldn't pick James J. Braddock, Doug Jones, Pinklon Thomas, or even Lennox Lewis to beat Tyson. I don't think Bonavena would ever beat Tyson either. Although Chuvalo was worlds tougher than Tyson, I think Tyson could probably beat him too, perhaps on cuts. I call that 50/ 50. Eddie Machen, Ron Lyle, Witherspoon, and Frazier are guys who I think could beat Tyson, but might not necessarily. Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Foreman, Young, Holmes, Holyfield, McCall, Mercer, and Bowe would all beat Tyson any day in the week.

 

Douglas beat an unprepared Tyson that was no longer with the Catskill team, so your argument is totally irrelevant.
Foreman destroyed both Frazier and Norton, both whom had beaten Ali. Yet Foreman lost to Ali.
Styles make fights and Holmes's style ain't beating Tyson.

 

The version of the fight that I saw has Holmes being counted out in 2 vs Shavers

 

Man I dont even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

It's part of the mystery of life.

 

Yet Douglas who is essentially a poor version of Holmes beat the #### out of him lol. So yea there goes your styles theories

 

What part of "Tyson was completely unprepared and no longer with the Catskill team" didn't you read ?!???

 

Chuvalo vs peak Tyson 50/50?? That's a uncompetitive massacre waiting to happen. Chuvalo with his leaky defense plodding in a straight line towards Tyson. He'd be a 208 pound bullseye for Tyson. Marciano vs Chuvalo would be more competitive and I still think Chuvalo would lose

 

On the night he beat Tyson, I think he'd have given Holmes one of the toughest test of his career. Douglas was a 6'5 230 pound man who showed exceptional skill that night.

 

What drugs are you on ?!?? I want some.
He beats Bonavena and Chuvalo on the same night. He obliterates Frazier and Young. Machen stands no chance whatsoever.
Neither do Lyle, Witherspoon, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Holyfield.
Liston, Bowe, Lewis and Foreman are the only ones that stand a chance of beating prime Tyson. Ali might also win on points, but his chances are slim. And even against these 5, I'd still make Tyson a favorite.

 

I'd be surprised if any knowledgeable member here disagreed with that. Tim was on fire that night, I NEVER saw him fight like that after. Period. That night he was fantastic, Weaver would have been pulverized.