If Lacy hadn't fought Calzaghe..

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Goran_, Jun 17, 2020.


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  1. Slimzos

    Slimzos New Member banned Full Member

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    Lacy unfortunately happened to have a vicious beatdown schooling by one of the greatest boxers of this era.

    Joes style was simply ALL WRONG for Lacy,

    Lacy should have swerved Calzaghe like the plague

    A Lacy that didn't fight Super Joe, still would have lost to the likes of Froch and Kessler but I think he would have been a top 10 Super middle for a good few years.
     
    Slimzos, Jun 17, 2020
    Slimzos, Jun 17, 2020
    #16
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  2. Goran_

    Goran_ Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Ya, I think he'd have struggled with those guys definitely but stylistically we probably missed him in some solid match ups with the tier down from them.. I wonder how he'd have fared at 160 too? Stature wise he could have been better suited to it maybe.. Lacy v Miranda? I think he'd spark Miranda in a war..
     
    Goran_, Jun 17, 2020
    Goran_, Jun 17, 2020
    #17
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  3. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    Do you not understand the difference between experience being valuable vs your record being an indication of your greatness as a pro? The context of those two comments is completely different.

    Here's an example

    Deontay Wilder - His 42 and 1 record is not highly regarded because most were bums

    Deontay Wilder - has the experience of 43 professional fights to draw upon going forward

    See the difference?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    #18
  4. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    While you all take your victory lap how about addressing the context. Just because I don't buy into someone's record as an amateur doesn't mean I'm saying the experience is not valuable
     
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    #19
  5. LoadedGlove

    LoadedGlove Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lacy's corner did as much to destroy his career as Calzaghe did.
     
    LoadedGlove, Jun 17, 2020
    LoadedGlove, Jun 17, 2020
    #20
  6. LoadedGlove

    LoadedGlove Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree that it's sad that this win and performance by Calzaghe has been de-valued by some revisionist history regarding Lacy.
    Good though he was however, even if he blanks Joe, he would run into Kessler soon enough and I reckon he would get a hiding in that one too.
     
    LoadedGlove, Jun 17, 2020
    LoadedGlove, Jun 17, 2020
    #21
  7. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    I mean, you said an amature record is completely meaningless.

    Completely, meaningless.

    We can play the semantics game all day, but any way you slice it, it was a stupid comment, imo.

    Amature records are hardly the be all end all,but they do have meaning in various aspects and to varying degrees.
     
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    #22
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  8. 22JM

    22JM Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lacy was just another Kirkland or Lemieux nothing special imo.
     
    22JM, Jun 17, 2020
    22JM, Jun 17, 2020
    #23
  9. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    The record itself, is more or less meaningless yes. The experience is not. Thats not semantics those are two non mutually exclusive statements
     
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    #24
  10. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    So, you find a record of say.... 110 wins and 10 losses to be more or less the same value and significance, on average, as a record thats 30 wins and 90 losses?

    You think they are, relatively, equally meaningless?
     
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    #25
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  11. Babality

    Babality KTFO!!!!!!! Full Member

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    I think Calzaghe truly ruined Lacy mentally. He wasn't THAT bad. There were obvious signs that Lacy was limited. But no one was anticipating that kind of beating. I've never seen such thorough domination of a fighter that's not being hurt. If Calzaghe had hurt him it's different because you know the guy is fighting hurt. The guy had his senses intact the whole fight and he was thoroughly annihilated in a competitive sense. I'd honestly rather get KTFO in one round than lose like that.
     
    Babality, Jun 17, 2020
    Babality, Jun 17, 2020
    #26
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  12. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    The quality of the experience is what matters not amassing tons of wins against competition that doesn't challenge you. If you have wins in the hundreds it is imo likely that many of them were fights that were a waste of time
     
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    Richmondpete, Jun 17, 2020
    #27
  13. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    1. You didnt answer a very simple question. Do those records hold relatively the same value, on average and within reason (same era, similar level of comp, ect).

    2. You are trying to seperate a value of something that is intrinsic to the event and simply cant be seperated from the overall value of that event. Experience in and of itself, in multiple ways, is one of the primary values and meaningful takeaways from fighting amature.

    What you are doing is like saying how many mountains someone has succesfully climbed, on average, is meaningless as to how succesful of a mountain climber they are, except for the experience they gain aka the knowledge they gain aka the growth theyve gained, in the experience of climbing those mountains. Its inseparable.

    Its like saying how much someone has trained is meaningless, except for the experience they acquired while training.

    Successful experience tends to mean growth. Growth means a gain in worth. Growth in worth is meaningful. Hence experience is meaningful.

    You cant turn around and then say ya well a record of 200 wins and 30 losses is meaningless, except for the ocean of value that comes with it due to the experience lol.

    3. A successful amature record, one in which the fighter has fought over a hundred times, have won national and international tournaments, and gone on to compete and even win in the olympics, is obviously and objectively a meaningful guage, on average, in which to assess a fighter, compared to an amature fighter with little to no amature experience or a losing amature record. A fighter with a lot of amature knockouts against quality opposition, tends to mean something. A fighter who has been knocked out in amatures repeatedly, tends to mean something. A fighter that repeatedly wins international tournaments, that tends to mean something.

    I know what it is you are saying, and how it can makes sense to someone, but its wrong. On average, a highly successful national and international amature career is a meaningful dimension in the boxing universe for a plethora of reasons.

    Lastly, if you listen to enough coaches and pro fighter interviews and assesments (when assessing opponents) you get a sense of how the actual professionals view it, and most of the time, its hardly meaningless.

    Anyways we are inevitably going to go in circles as is forum nature. Ill read your response and then leave it at that.
     
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    kirk, Jun 17, 2020
    #28
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  14. anjawnaymiz

    anjawnaymiz Can we get Ivan Dychko some momentum Full Member

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    Classic case of a big puncher walking through a lot of top fighters meeting a fast handed, southpaw counterpuncher with experience.

    that’s just the way it goes sometimes, Calzaghe and his dad obviously did there homework and got in the best shape of his career.

    the corner not pulling out lacy ruined him a bit and also Calzaghe laying a blueprint out for every else who fought lacy after him
     
    anjawnaymiz, Jun 18, 2020
    anjawnaymiz, Jun 18, 2020
    #29
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  15. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    Roy was the greatest SMW of all time.

    A clear level above everyone else.
     
    Loudon, Jun 18, 2020
    Loudon, Jun 18, 2020
    #30
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