1952 Rocky Marciano vs 1960 Cleveland Williams

I agree, i was just giving a hypothetical argument. You will never hear me bash the Mongoose.

 

I don't put to much stock in that loss considering Williams was a kid, green, untested, undeveloped, and was a last minute replacement. Even so he put up a respectable effort by Satterfield's own admission, being the first fighter to hurt him with a jab, and at one point being up on the cards, and at worst even at the time of the stoppage.

Jones was NEVER the second best heavyweight at any time during Ali's reign. Terrell was the 2nd best heavyweight of the mid 60s, by nearly all accounts.

Nice subtle attempt to mislead people into thinking Satterfield had retired Williams. What actually happened was that Williams received his military call up papers PRIOR to his fight with Satterfield and it was clear he was going to be out indefinitely.

A flat out lie. He had very respectable wins after his return prior to facing a peak Sonny Liston including over the previously ranked (don't know if he was ranked at the time Williams beat him) Dick Richardson who held a win over Ezzard Charles and would go on to beat Bob Baker, Bert Whitehurst, Brian London and a VERY impressive unique first round KO of future Contender Karl Mildenberger who was only ever knocked out twice afterwards by The greatest of all time and being decapitated by hard-punching contender Leotis Martin. Even in these losses, he troubled both and gave a tremendous effort, much better than he could ever muster against Richardson.

He also beat the feared John Holman, a fierce puncher with a list of very impressive knockout victims which one could make a case is among the best of those who never won the title.

Ezzard Charles, Elmer Ray, Cesar Brion, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Bob Satterfield, Willie Bean, Larry Watson, Julio Mederos.

Love how you're trying to put down Daniels. You do realize Daniels was coming off a win to Jones your self proclaimed second best heavyweight during Ali's reign, prior to his rematch with Williams.

And if Liston hadn't mercifuly ended the bout what do you think would've happened? Terrell might've gotten killed.

He didn't lose at all in 1961 which would be required in order for your disingenuous claim that he was losing once a year to be true.

His losses to Johnny Gray, were 3 and 4 years prior to facing Williams. Are you seriously claiming that Terrell hadn't gotten any better at all in these 4 years but had suddenly turned over a new leaf in the 2 months separating his loss to Williams and his win over Amos Johnson in his very next fight (the same victory you used to show that Terrell had indeed improved after his loss to Williams). Pretty laughable. Pretty pathetic.

Yes he did. I don't see how this is anything but a positive for Williams. Williams was the only person, along with a peak Muhammad Ali to beat him in this time period (arguably twice) which puts him in pretty elite territory. The only person to knock him out in his career except in his last fight when he was shot and had absolutely nothing left.

 

Ummmm?

 

No, I said Terrell developed into the second best heavyweight in the world after losing to Williams. I said He achieved this beating a list of guys I named in no particular order with Jones being the last one. You decided that last name was the crowning moment. But I intended the culmination of the list to be the demonstration of this. Machen. Folley. Jones. The revenge win over Williams. Chuvalo...

I agree. Jones never was the second best heavyweight in the world. Even if he did a lot better against Ali than Williams and Brian London did.

And by my account too. I agree with you. I cannot understand how you chose to believe I thought different.

No I think this is getting carried away. Terrell is the second best heavyweight of that time, or with hindsight, possibly a young Frazier Was once joe beats Chuvalo, but even losing by split decision to the second best guy in Terrell that’s not elite. I mean one step up from a SD loss is a draw. A draw is not a win. Neither is it a loss. If that Terrell loss was promoted to a draw (and I think it was a fair decision as it stood) this means Willian’s draws with both Machen and Terrell. Two draws. Hardly anything to celebrate. Nobody covers Pinklon Thomas in glory for his draw against Coetzee do they? Imagine If Pinklon Thomas drew with Coetzee then drew with Witherspoon then got shot by a policeman? nobody would be making threads about Thomas beating great fighters.

 

Not to mention, losing about once every year doesn't sound too bad for a guy who fights 5-8 times a year when most fight 2-5 times a year. Sounds pretty dang good to me.

 

you wouldn't rank Liston, Patterson, or even Jerry Quarry #2? Not that I disagree with Terrell being #2, just a question.

 

I would make a thread about him destroying a prime Ali

 

You should've made it clearer. You put the parentheses AFTER Doug Jones. Maybe it was a reading comprehension error on my part, but you didn't put it in the simplest of terms.

No it's not getting carried away. What part of my post was factually incorrect? In a 5 year period, generally consisting of Terrell's peak Terrell had 2 losses to Cleveland Williams and a peak Muhammad Ali (though I wouldn't argue with anyone who says Terrell actually had 3 losses, including the Williams rematch). Please point out what was factually incorrect in my post. Furthermore, unlike Williams Ali failed to knock out Terrell despite his best efforts. When asked why he didn't knock Terrell out, Ali responded with the following: "I don't believe I could have. I had a couple of opportunities to knock him out, but he was so determined. I didn't realize he could take as much punishment as he did." Perhaps I've been underrated Terrell's durability. Which makes Williams KO of him, the only person to accomplish this feat (unless you include Terrell's final fight when he was shot and had nothing left) all the more impressive.

Yes he was. Which makes Williams record against him all the more impressive. Williams got his win against Terrell by way of KO. Terrell got his win against Williams by controversial SD. In your honest opinion (if you're even capable of having such a thing) who do you think got the better of this rivalry, Williams or Terrell?

Machen at one point was known as the best in the world besides arguably Patterson and when he fought Williams only a peak Sonny Liston was rated above him. That's it. If Williams was as bad as you're saying he was, Machen would've wiped the floor with him. He didn't. Instead, most observers, the AP, as well as one judge scored the fight for Williams clearly.

Many people, including the AP also thought Terrell lost his rematch, a razor thin SD in which Williams finished the stronger. It's VERY likely Williams would've gotten a late KO, or a decision had the bout been longer.

I fail to see the relevance in this. I seriously don't even know what this is supposed to mean, or what you're trying to argue here.