James Jeffries vs Deontay Wilder

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by 70sFan865, Jun 15, 2020.


Who would have won?

  1. James J. Jeffries

    23 vote(s)
    38.3%

  2. Deontay Wilder

    37 vote(s)
    61.7%
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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    He beat Martin in Martin's debut fight, what happened in the return?
     
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    #211
  2. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He beat Martin twice.
     
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    #212
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Apologies yes he did, I missed the 1903 fight.
     
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    #213
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  4. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No reason to apologize! Everybody can forget some facts here and there ;)
     
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    #214
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  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ring is owned by a promoter. I can't take their rankings even moderately seriously since that happened. It's very obviously a bad joke.

    But when you're unpacking say the 1930s, Ring rankings are a very, very handy tool. They were biased - to certain overseas fighters, to fighters known and appreciated by the publication - but they're very decent and providing the lay of the land in any given month. There is no "clean" way to understand what is happening.

    Relly on film, you are talking about being able to see about 10% of contests by 10% of fighters, less.

    Relly upon newspapers you have issues surrounding bias, regional bias, and "cobbled" fight reports written by men who were not ringside and alleged bribery.

    Or you can use Ring. Ring's the best of the bunch, i'm afraid.
     
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    #215
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Big old post that and some of it quite good.

    If you don't mind the interception, the question I think is a) did a fighter definitively prove himself the best of his generation and b) how do we know that. They're obviously linked. Now, identifying a good rankings system for a given era is a huge help to understanding who an ATG fighter missed out on and how much it mattered. Janitor is saying he uses Ring for that for the most part.

    There was no rankings system in Jeffries' era. What I think Janitor is saying is that in his opinion, Jeffries did more to prove he was the best of his era than Wilder - Jeffries more definitively proved he was the best.

    He's not saying, I don't think, that beating a SMW is more impressive than beating a 250lb younger fresher opponent in the sense that it is a more difficult task or that the SMW would beat the 250lb guy; he's saying that the victory is worth more in a legacy sense because it went a longer way to proving that Jeffries was the best.

    Now arguments about relative strengths of various eras comes in to play but in the sense of legacy, it is reasonable to argue that beating ht best around is always better than doing otherwise. And tbf, that carries weight - it's why the most written thing on the forum is Dempsey's failure to fight Wills or Bowe failing to meet Lewis.
     
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    #216
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  7. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Same, I forgot to TiVo it.
     
    reznick, Jun 19, 2020
    reznick, Jun 19, 2020
    #217
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  8. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ratings seem to be based a lot on speculation given the disinclination of top fighters to face each other.

    Daniel Dubois may well be a top 10 heavyweight ability wise.
     
    Cojimar 1946, Jun 19, 2020
    Cojimar 1946, Jun 19, 2020
    #218
  9. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I definitely disagree that any ranking is the only way to judge fighters. It's impossible and all rankings use some assumptions. That said, there is no reason to question Jeffries competition.

    He beat by far the best fighter of that era - Bob Fitzsimmons - twice by KO and don't start with age numbers again. Bob was phenomenal old fighter.
    He beat two of the best young challengers - Gus Ruhlin and Tom Sharkey.
    He beat old champion Corbett twice and gave him rematch after tough fight.
    He beat old, past prime fighters whose names were still famous then - Goddard and Jackson - even if they were nothing special at this point.
    He beat two top black fighters of that era (Armstrong and Griffin), one of them in his pro debut.
    He beat some weaker contenders that were dangerous like any other champion did - Pete Everrette and Joe Kennedy.
    He also had two poor defenses - Munroe and Finnegan - but most long-time champions had weaker defenses.

    The only way to criticize him is to have his early retirement against him. Had he stayed longer and beat more contenders, it would have been even clearer that he was a great fighter.



    On the other hand, let's not get too far with Wilder either. I believe that his competition is quite poor but it doesn't make him bad fighter. He's extremely dangerous puncher, always well conditioned and he's not easy to knock out. He's legit threat for any fighter.
     
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    70sFan865, Jun 19, 2020
    #219
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  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Wilder is no Bruno. He is who we thought he was and has hit his peak. This forum has lots of Tua vs. threads. Okay. At least Tua could punch and take a punch, giving him a chance to beat all time greats. I get that. Wilder can't box, or take a punch. He fights nobodies outside of Fury. Tua beat good competition. Who has Wilder beaten? Who. Exactly. He has beaten aero top 10 contenders under the age of 36.

    40+ year old men no longer on PED's hardly count as best wins

    If Wilder was born and lived in Trinidad and Tobago, my guess is few people would care about him at this point in his career. But here at ESB Classic, many posters who know very little about boxing in general pre world war two will pick him over whoever ever time.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 19, 2020
    Mendoza, Jun 19, 2020
    #220
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, that would plainly be ridiculous.
     
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    McGrain, Jun 19, 2020
    #221
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  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You're showing us something. There were no Ring Magazine Ratings until the mid 1920's. If there were Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey would have been rated in the top #1-5, perhaps Ruhlin as well if not the top ten for sure. Jeffries fought them all, twice. Choysnki likely would have been rated. Munroe might have been top 10 being undefeated as the division was in transition by 1904 Griffin in his pre-title years. Maybe Armstrong too.

    Historian Nat Fleischer who saw them from 1900-1971 all said Jeffries faced the best competition. A survey of 12 historians in the 1950's voted Jeffries #1 overall. That's who he was.

    To answer your question, Jeffries can be seen on film vs. Ruhlin, Sharkey, Johnson, or sparring with Tommy Ryan ( Rare footage, outdoors in a park ) or Jack Jeffries. In hi prime he was quick handed well coordinated big guy with pretty good footwork.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 19, 2020
    Mendoza, Jun 19, 2020
    #222
  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Coetzee was a long way inside the top 10 when Bruno starched him..........in under 2 minutes........as cold as a pork chop.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    JohnThomas1, Jun 19, 2020
    JohnThomas1, Jun 19, 2020
    #223
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  14. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree using the Ring is fine in terms of how fighters were perceived at the time and who it was felt were the best contenders. They give a good overview. I just wouldn't treat them as gospel given how the Ring itself has been compromised in the past. I wouldn't say their ratings were any better than the NBA's either, it's just the Ring is more accessible. We all have old copies of the Ring lying around whereas the NBA's ratings can be harder to track down.

    It's also really a moot point to criticise Wilder (or anyone) for not meeting enough Ring rated fighters, because as WBC champ he was obligated to face their contenders, not the Ring's. Someone could be ranked #1 by the Ring and not even be in the WBC's top ten and thus he was under no obligation to face them.
     
    Berlenbach, Jun 19, 2020
    Berlenbach, Jun 19, 2020
    #224
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  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Wilder did not face the best challengers for the better part of his reign.
    Jeffries avoided the best black challengers,instead defending against older men coming out of retirement.
    Of his other challengers Sharkey gave him life and death.Ruhlin underperformed' which he was wont to do,that's not Jeffries fault, but its nevertheless a fact.
    Munroe and Finnegan were joke gimmees who had no business being anywhere near a title fight.Their only qualification was the colour of their skin.
    Talk of 40 years old Goddard and 37 years old 5 1/2 years retired alcoholic Jackson as being good wins is pure BS , as is fighting your sparring partner Kennedy.

    It's a fight that could go either way imo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2020
    #225
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