Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

I agree. When you scrape the bottom of the European barrel looking for wins for Ingo like Hein Ten Hoff, but omit wins for Williams like Johnny Holman, Billy Daniels and Roger Rischer, it is not being objective, it is being partial to fit an agenda. This is a good subject matter, but this needs to be apples to apples.

 

I love how people use Williams shooting as an excuse for why he never achieved anything but ignore that when he was shot he was past 30 and had been a pro for over a decade. Its not like he got shot as a young undefeated prospect and with all of this potential that went unrealized. Hed already failed to beat the best fighters he had faced. He usually lost in those fights spectacularly. We know exactly who Cleveland Williams was in his prime, stop pretending that “if he hadnt gotten shot theres no telling what he would have accomplished or who he would have beaten.” And if you have to tout Roger Rischer, Billy Daniels, and Johnny Holman as some example of the quality of men he beat thats damning him with feint praise those guys collectively finished their careers with a combined record of 79-52-7. It didnt exactly take an all time great to beat them and frankly when Williams beat Holman it was Holmans last fight, hed been stopped just one month earlier and had only won one of his last six fights. Roger Rischer had never defeated anyone of note, and while Billy Daniels had defeated Alongi and Dejohn he didnt exactly set the world on fire and never amounted to anything worthy of being used to prop up a guys resume. When Billy Daniels is one of your best wins dont come crying to me about how dangerous you were.

 

You're vastly overrating Ingo. I don't think he comes close to that many victories.

 

Why, what do you think he gets?

 

This is the part where people's attempts to talk down Cleveland Williams always go off the rails. In his prime, Williams was clearly defeated by Sonny Liston. That's it. For another "spectacular" loss you have to go all the way back to 1954, when at the age of 20 he stepped in as a last-minute substitute against Satterfield, or all the way forward to his loss to a prime Muhammad Ali, when he was 33 years old with permanent nerve and kidney damage from a near-fatal gunshot wound. This claim that "he usually lost in those fights spectacularly" just doesn't hold up.

 

Corbett, Fitz, Hart, Willard, maybe Braddock (don't know enough about him), Spinks, and Primo. I think Williams beats these same fighters but I'd add Moorer, Briggs, Patterson, Marciano (yeah I know it's blasphemy to imagine Marciano losing to anybody let alone somebody 4-5 inches taller 30+ pounds heavier, faster, hits like a truck (harder than Liston himself), and has a huge style advantage) and possibly Michael. Baer is 50-50

Both lose to Dempsey, Johnson, Ali, Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Charles, Walcott, Holmes, Holyfield, Bowe, Tokyo Douglas, Lewis, Wlad, and Fury. Additionally, Ingo looses to Moorer, Briggs, Patterson, Marciano, and Baer.

 

You're vastly overrating Williams. I don't think he comes close to that many victories.

I also think we're both forgetting Rahman. I'd say he beats both.

Who'd you pick out of Jeffries vs Ingo, and Jeffries vs Williams? I've gone back and forth all day on both.

Someone who's open for right hands, doesn't box and loves to get in brawls? Yeah, Moorer would be a treat for Ingo.

If Briggs can't beat Sedreck Fields or Darroll Wilson, I can't see him beating Ingo or Williams. For me, Briggs is one of the worst lineal champs ever.

Baer was actually one of the fights I was most sure Ingo would beat. Max threw wildly and ate counters for breakfast. Ingo's power and follow-through is enough to crack anyone's chin around his weight (a first round KO over Machen is a good enough credential to say this IMO) and Ingo's hands were much much quicker than some of the guys who beat Baer to the punch.

Sorry, can't see either beating Marciano. I can't really see Williams beating Patterson either TBH. Patterson beat better, and was better. If stung Williams hard, I doubt his chin would hold up (although the reverse is also true).

Oh BTW, Braddock is a really interesting fighter. Definitely one to look into if you haven't, the guy is often painted as a journeyman/bum, but he was actually really talented. He beat one of my all-time favourite LHWs, John Henry Lewis.

 

I totally agree and I'm amazed at how people don't even know what 'apples to apples' mean. They will push 'facts' for their own agenda and omit facts that may laud another. Such as stating that Williams' win over Johnny Holman was Holman's last fight. That's right, it was. But having said that, why wasn't it also added that Ingo's win over Hein Ten Hoff and Heinz Neuhaus was their last fight (actually second last for Neuhaus)? Or that the year prior to Williams-Holman, that Holman was involved in the elimination tourney for Rocky Marciano's title? I can assure you if Ten Hoff was involved in an elimination they would be mentioning it. I'm all for a good discussion but let's not omit facts to self-serve an opposing opinion. Dismissing Roger Rischer is also bad manners. He was the California state heavyweight champ going into the Williams fight and the year after the Williams fight he beat Henry Cooper at the Royal Albert Hall and beat Charlie Powell. He lasted 3 rounds with Williams. And Billy Daniels was an 18-1 hot prospect when he fought Williams with his only loss to Ali. Moreover, the original post which is obviously making the case for Ingo only, pumps up his great amateur record as Olympic Silver medalist. Again, full disclosure. He was DQ'd for not trying against Eddie Sanders. He was not awarded a place on the podium nor a medal until with enough petitioning the IOC awarded him his silver medal 30 years later. And also no one has mentioned from the original post under greatest wins, the Brian London fight with Ingo. Ingo had his arse handed to him in the 12th round and the only thing that saved this great 'win' for him was the bell and the fact that he had accumulated enough points to get the decision unaware of where he even was. How many rounds does anyone here thing Brian London would have lasted with Williams? Look, I'm not trying to denigrate anyone, but if the purpose of this thread was so we could all form a concise opinion, then let's keep our thumbs off the scale for one fighter and make it Even-Steven. Personally, both at their peak, I think it would be a great fight in which anything could happen with two noted bangers, but I would favor Williams.

 

He got shot when he was in his prime, and had already earned a title shot which he likely would've won. The idea that this shooting didn't take away any of this potential is laughable. Additionally, the reason more names aren't on Williams resume is that contenders, (as well as the champ at the time imo) weren't all that keen to step in the ring with him.

A flat out lie. The best fighters he faced in the time period even remotely close to his prime were Terrell (2nd best heavyweight of the mid-60s, Machen, Daniels, Miteff, and Liston. All were prime or close to it. Let's see how he did

Terrell: He was the only man to knock out Terrell in his entire career, with the exception of his last fight in which he was a shell of his former self. In the rematch, he lost a very close, controversial SD, which many (including the AP) scored for him, in which he finished the stronger.

Machen: Drew with Machen in a fight where the majority of observers had him the clear winner, as well as one judge, and the AP. He also staggered him a number of times, more than a Peak Liston could manage, and received a complement from Machen that he was harder to fight than Liston.

Daniels: Beat him twice clearly.

Miteff: Beat him so decisively that their were calls for him to receive a title shot. "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

Liston: Gave him two great hard fights in his peak. Broke his nose, visibly rattled him, gave Liston all he could handle and all kinds of hell before being put down. Put up a much better effort in one fight, than Patterson could muster in TWO against an inferior Liston. Afterwards, Liston said Williams was the hardest puncher he'd ever been in the ring with and that he hit as hard as himself. And according to an SI article that you yourself gave credence to "Cleveland Williams all but knocked Liston out".

Again, I need to see all these "spectacular" losses. None exist (unless you call the Liston losses "spectacular"

Yet, you had no problem with the OP including Hein Ten Hoff, Henry Cooper (at that point in his career) among questionable others in Ingo's signature wins. This is a double standard of enormous proportions!

Another flat out lie. Rischer had wins over Cooper, King, Powell 2X, and Johnson. Funny you seem to have omitted this.

Daniels was ranked, and held wins over Alongi, Dejohn, and Doug Jones,

 

Excellent post which clearly describes and exposes the OP, and his "objective" thread (expect to be dubbed delusional, called names, and attempted to being gas-lighted by the OP).

 

Do you really think so ?

 

Ingo’s problem was that as soon as he achieved his goal, which was winning the title his ambition pretty much died much like Frazier didn’t have the same ambition to fight and train after he beat Ali and got a killer payday.

One of the hardest things to do is staying ambitious once becoming top dog, which is why I give a lot of credit to long reigning champions, who manage to thrive with their success instead of being consumed by it.

 

Ingo would play Fitz game against Fitz. Bob wasn't beatable at his own game, he'd murder him.