Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

People one do go off what they saw, but when someone gets shot before the end of their prime, there's a sense of "what if"

Imo that's perfectly natural to speculate on what could have been.

 

In 120 fights. It's not that bad...

 

No, he fought against heavyweights even over 170 lbs.

 

All of the available evidence points to Johansen being a better fighter than Williams.

The one metric in which Williams does perhaps surpass Johansen, is the respect of his peers.

They seem to have been more scared of Williams!

 

I'm not sure they'd have said that if they were ringside for their respective Machen fights!

 

I notice you haven't attempted to defend your claim that "He'd already failed to beat the best fighters he had faced. He usually lost in those fights spectacularly."

Is that because you've realised it's not true, or did you know it wasn't true when you posted it, and you were just hoping no one would notice?

 

In his first 13 years as a pro, he was ko'd three times, fighting ten years at the top level against as many top contenders as seldom was achieved, winning a hundred or more fights, after 1902 he was a 35 year old chronic alcoholic.

 

One thing is for sure, Liston held a lot more respect and thought more of Williams than he did Ingo and Patterson. Now I'm just going out on a limb, but I think he might've known just a smidge more than our "objective" thread starter.

 

The shooting of Cleveland Big Cat Williams on Nov 30 1964 by a Texas State Trooper causes many to wonder how much further his career would have gone if not for that unfortunate incident. In 1964, he was named by the WBA to meet Ernie Terrell for that sanctioning bodies vacant title. The WBA World Heavyweight Title was declared vacant following champion Muhammad Ali's signing for a return fight against Sonny Liston. It raises a lot of questions, would if Williams had defeated Terrell for the second time in three bouts? Or could he have been able to defeat Ernie? It is hard to speculate, as boxing is a funny business, anything can happen.

 

I'm not convinced he did fight consistently over 180 unless one is talking the tail of his career where he racked up losses at a fast rate. The massive majority of his career would have been fought at under 180.

At least 80 of those KO's are against guys with 10 fights or less or losing records.

Full marks to Bob and what he did in his own era it puts him extremely high on ATG lists and deservedly so. I'm in no way gullible enough to think Lineal champs like Ingo can't go at him and win. Bob could make 160 at all stages of his career it's just a bridge way too far. Ingo wasn't massive but he was well filled out and naturally miles bigger than Bob.

 

Ingo way more proven at top level. Unless you think Cleveland’s style poses a major threat I can’t see any reason to pick him here. Ingo crushed Machen and Patterson. Better than anything on William’s resume. He also cleaned out the British domestic scene which rates better than most of William’s work outside of the Terrell win.

 

@William Walker Keen to hear your thoughts on this thread.

 

I believe that he weighed over 180 lbs against Fitzsimmons when he got knocked out in one round. Either way, I don't remember him being below LHW limit in any fight.

Records from that era are incomplete. Maher fought everybody, he didn't miss any top tier contender outside of Corbett who likely ducked him. Sure, he had some easier wins but he knocked out most of top 10 of that era. He's not manufactured contender, he fought Peter Jackson when he was complete novice!

Well, Ingo was powerful enough that he could stop anybody. I wouldn't bet on it though, Fitz sustained beating from Maher, Sharkey, Choynski and Ruhlin quite well.
Fitzsimmons beat quality fighter who was bigger than Ingo - Gus Ruhlin. I also don't think that Bob could make 160 lbs in 1900s. He filled out his frame at this point and consistently fought above 170 lbs.