Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

Not really. Johansson doesn't have that many good wins either. Machen and Patterson. Who else? nobody. Floyd showed that one could easily make one or two changes in ur game plan and easily beat and destroy Ingo. Machen would've done the same. Machen was trying to get a fight with Ingo in '60, and guess what? Ingo wouldn't fight him? why do you think that is? Ingo was no fool. He knew he couldn't pull it off again. Ingo wouldn't win a rematch, and he showed he couldn't vs. Patterson. Oh, he did win a rematch over the great Joe Bygraves though. Johansson is the epitome of a one-trick pony.

 

I am happy for you to educate me as to when Williams was a higher ranked contender than Jackson, a higher ranked contender than Roy Harris, a higher ranked contender than Brian London, a higher ranked contender than Ingo, a higher ranked contender than Liston during the times Patterson was champion. Don’t be bringing up mcneeley or Radmacher. These were just warm up fights put together when matches with Ingo and Liston were already set.

cus was happy for Patterson to fight the winner of the world title eliminator between Machen and Folley. Trouble was these two did not produce a logical contender since their fight was a draw. The fight sucked. Both camps wanted a rematch and the champion wasnt going to wait without defending his title again for those two to rematch nobody wanted to see. without a summer title fight, Patterson took the number 3 rated contender Roy Harris. Within a very short space of time Machen then took a bout against Ingo and was knocked out. #4 rated Pastrano lost to Brian London. Henry Cooper beat Zora Folley. Floyd then beat London and fought Ingo. But there is an argument it was Cooper who deserved a title shot over London. Folley, Machen, Pastrano has all lost. Williams and Liston were nowhere near at the time.

You are not including the time line here. 1958 Sonny was behind Ingo in the ratings.

By the year Sonny won the title,1962, liston had wins over folley williams from anual ratings. he beat 2 of the top 5 and 3 of top 10. It’s slightly less than Ingo. 1959 ingo had, cooper, machen and erskine on his resume. So he beat 3 of top 5 and 4 of the top 10.

yes this is correct. And as you know in those days a champion had to beat the champion twice in order to become a champion. This was the rematch clause era. With Ingo as Champion he was committed to rematching Floyd. Then Floyd was committed to rematching Ingo. At no point during the rivalry was Sonny or anybody else getting a crack at the title until this was sorted out. Look at the history. Marciano had to beat Walcott twice. Walcott had to beat Charles twice. Floyd had to beat ingo twice. Sonny had to beat Floyd twice. Ali had to beat Sonny twice. Number one contenders were kept waiting while all these rematches went on. It wasn’t just Sonny who had to wait. Think of the guys in line while wallcott beat Charles twice, while Ali fought Sonny twice, while Marciano beat Walcott twice. It wasn’t just Sonny!

The stars also aligned just right for Big Cat Williams. All he had to do was beat Machen. Williams was not up to it.

Ingo had more than just Machen on his record. Look at the Annual ratings. 1959 ingo had, cooper, machen and erskine on his resume. So he beat 3 of top 5 and 4 of the top 10. It’s actually less than Liston had accomplished by the time Sonny was champion. If you look at the fighters Sonny had beat within the annual ratings the year he became champion.

all told ingo beat 8 men who made ratings.

 

Well, some were afraid of him. Terrell, Ali, and Chuvalo all got held back from him for a while.

 

Ingo was about a tenth of the fighter Williams was, I mean look at Williams' arsenal:
1. Power
2. Handspeed
3. Movement
4. Combinations
5. Body Punching
6. Stamina
7. Durabilty
8. Jab

Ingo simply does not check most of these boxes, whereas Williams does. Ingo showed little speed and movement in his fights. He had absolutely NO COMBINATIONS, just a single right hand, maybe preceded by his ineffective left jab. He was not a body puncher, and was not particularly durable. He had some stamina and durability. And a big right hand. So did Williams, so why's Ingo so great? he's not

 

I forgot about Cooper. You have good arguments. But can we do something else? Instead of talking about the records, let's talk about skills. How was Ingo in any way better than Williams STRICTLY AS A FIGHTER. Let's not base this discussion on specific fights, unless it's proof of/ or lack thereof of a skill displayed by Ingo or Cleve.

 

For the people saying Williams "should" have gotten a title shot or was "denied" a title shot when Patterson was champion go back and check all of the ratings by the NBA (the only rating organization that mattered at the time) and tell me what his highest rating was. Here, I'll do it for you: Williams never rated higher than #4 during Patterson's reign and he wasnt rated #4 for an extended period of time.

 

My mistake, Ingo wasn't a tenth of the fighter of Williams, just 2/ 7.

 

Lol, what fighter are you watching because thats not Cleveland Williams. Williams was a big straight up and down fighter. He didnt have great movement, didnt have great handspeed, didnt have great stamina, wasnt a great bodypuncher, wasnt especially durable, wasnt a great combination puncher. Where did you conjure all of this B.S. from? And frankly, even if you believe this fantasy version of Williams it doesnt resolve the fact that Williams couldnt put those traits together to beat fighters of Johansson's calibre or maintain any kind of winnings streak against challengers. He just didnt.

 

I don't need to. It's clear from watching fights and checking records that Ingemar Johansson, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, and Sonny Liston, and several others were much more worthy of title shots. But Floyd was fighting bums anyway. Since he was fighting Rademacher, Roy Harris, and Brian London, how can one say Williams does not deserve a title shot?

 

I for the life of me will never get the Williams hype machine. He was a damn good fighter and contender. I just don’t see him realistically being better then most second raters let alone A fighters. Simple reason is he was in an era of very good fighters who fought each other. He should have more wins over good competition then he does to be considered at such status. There are loads of fighters w pretty records when at their best. But you need wins even when not at ur best.

 

I didn't. I've watched all of Williams' fights (that were filmed) over and over and over again. I can get enough of the guy. Obviously you've never even seen him fight, except for the Ali fight, which is true, he didn't display any of the qualities I mentioned.

 

Where are the Tyson fans on here? Shouldn't they be going around screaming at everybody Williams haters? I'm not gonna do that.

 

This point loses all credibility when Terrell is lumped in as someone afraid of Williams. Terrell fought Williams when Terrell was green and re-matched him when Williams was at his peak. And if Williams hadn't been shot, they would have fought a rubber match.

And I don't think it all that credible that Ali and Chuvalo were ducking him either.