Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

I know Williams career was cut short. By now, don’t you think I know Williams record inside out? At the point where Williams is a rated fighter, he really is not standing out anymore than another contender who can take those just outside the championship pretty close. Yes he took Terrell pretty close. Yes he took Machen pretty close. Two guys who were NOT world beaters. They were just good guys. Chuvalo took Terrell close. Floyd Patterson and Harold Johnson beat Machen. Folley took Machen close. In fact a lot of good fighters took Terrell and Machen pretty close. Had somebody shot them around that time do you think anybody could make a case for them to beat Ingo Johansson who absolutely obliterated the guy who Williams took pretty close?

I am directly addressing this point. I am in no way shying away from it. In a head to head sense Ingo totally eclipses Williams because, for one plain example, of the results they had against Machen. If you put Williams in the “right place at the right time” against Floyd Patterson I really don’t think Williams would have a chance because Patterson was still very good and the worlds best active heavyweight when Ingo beat Floyd.

Patterson proved a slow target like Williams was not a problem when he whipped a similarly physically equipped heavyweight Charlie Powell. He also knocked out Henry Cooper in some style in England. If Floyd was too quick for Henry as an ex champion then Floyd is too quick and clever for Willliams as a champion. Forget about Floyds chin. If Cooper can’t expose it then Williams is not going to. Henry was always a faster more Capable boxer than Williams. And it’s not just Cooper. As an ex champ, Floyd was able to decisively beat Machen too. So this is three good examples, Cooper, Powell and Machen, of how, given the “right place right time” scenario, Williams will always come up short before his gun shot wounding against any version of Floyd Patterson. He just does not have the class. Show me howhe has?

 

Chuvalo took Terrell close ?BS Nothing close about that fight.

• Referee: Sammy Luftspring 65-72
• Judge: Fred Nobert 65-73
• Judge: Billy Burke 65-69

Liston was a slow target for Patterson, slower than Williams would have been.How did that work out for Floyd?lol

 

Nobody said Williams knocked out a list of top contenders and you know this but are trying to create a straw man in order to back yourself out of the corner.

"Its not like he got shot as a young undefeated prospect and with all of this potential that went unrealized. Hed already failed to beat the best fighters he had faced. He usually lost in those fights spectacularly. " These are your words. The best fighters he faced prior to being shot were Williams, Terrell, Daniels, and Machen. As I said in my previous post: Terrell: He was the only man to knock out Terrell in his entire career, with the exception of his last fight in which he was a shell of his former self. In the rematch, he lost a very close, controversial SD, which many (including the AP) scored for him, in which he finished the stronger.

Machen: Drew with Machen in a fight where the majority of observers had him the clear winner, as well as one judge, and the AP. He also staggered him a number of times, more than a Peak Liston could manage, and received a complement from Machen that he was harder to fight than Liston.

Daniels: Beat him twice clearly.

Please show me all of these "spectacular losses" to his top competition or admit you blatantly lied.

Miteff: Beat him so decisively that their were calls for him to receive a title shot. "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

Liston: Gave him two great hard fights in his peak. Broke his nose, visibly rattled him, gave Liston all he could handle and all kinds of hell before being put down. Put up a much better effort in one fight, than Patterson could muster in TWO against an inferior Liston. Afterwards, Liston said Williams was the hardest puncher he'd ever been in the ring with and that he hit as hard as himself. And according to an SI article that you yourself gave credence to "Cleveland Williams all but knocked Liston out".

 

SINCE @choklab IS TO MUCH OF A COWARD TO ADDRESS MY QUESTION, I'LL DO IT MYSELF. When Choklab was comparing London's and William's performance against common opponents in a manner as objective as the OP, he somehow missed out on Dick Richardson. Because I'm such a generous guy, I'll save him the trouble. Richardson near the end of the road, stopped London in the 8th round. While against Williams, a younger Richardson was seriously hopelessly outmatched, not even escaping the first round without being dropped. He went on to be battered every single round en route to being disqualified for throwing headbutts in retaliation to shitting himself after tasting Williams' power and looking for a way out.

"Cleveland Williams of the U.S. defeated Dick Richardson in their scheduled 10 round bout tonight when the Welsh boxer was disqualified in the 4th round for butting. In the 1st round the Welshman forced the Yank to back away from a flurry of blows. After that, Williams took charge. He floored Richardson for a count of two in the 1st round just after the Welsh boxer drew his first warning for butting. Blood ran from a gash on Williams' cheek as he sat in his corner between the 1st and 2nd rounds. He rocked Richardson with a left to the jaw in the 2nd and halted a Richardson flurry with two uppercuts in the 3rd. The American's cheek began bleeding again after Richardson was warned for butting. Then came the 4th and Richardson butted himself right out of the fight."

 

That's not even the worst part. We can SEE William's speed on film and a guy who was actually in the ring with him said this:

"In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

But according to Choklab Williams was "slow" and it would be easy for Ingo to beat him to the punch and out land him.

This sort of ABC logic doesn't really work in boxing...why am I even explaining this to someone who is so knowledgeable of boxing history? Frazier and Norton had razor thin bouts with Ali before Foreman destroyed them, and we saw how he did against Ali. Duran had a close brutal war with Leonard, Leonard came from behind to stop Hearns, then Hearns brutally KO'd Duran early. Hagler KO'd Hearns, so You would think Hagler would just run over Duran who moved up from lightweight, but no they had a close competitive bout. You cannot determine a winner based on one common opponent, especially because Machen chased Ingo for a rematch and was turned down. How often does a guy lose badly in 1 round and then pursues a rematch confident it will be different? Ingo knew he couldn't strike twice with lightning.

Machen was an elusive and more defensive fighter who used his legs and skills to outmanneuver opponents. Ingo was a completely different opponent, waiting patiently like a sniper looking for an opening to land one big shot. Williams wasn't the toughest guy on the planet, but relying on such a strategy against a guy who is both tall and fast with good power and not afraid to let his hands go, a guy who can both box and slug, might not be the best strategy. If Williams knows to look out for the right hand he could possibly neutralize it and win on points due to Ingo's lack of activity, or jump on him from the opening bell before he is able to get the timing down for his right hand counter. It's honestly amazing Ingo did as well as he did with such a simple strategy with no plan B even if it was a weaker era.

Completely disagree. It's funny that you and Klompton criticize Williams as a guy who often lost more than he won when he stepped up in class but that's a word for word perfect way to describe much of Henry Cooper's career. In terms of accomplishments, Cooper might just barely be a teeny notch above Williams and had more success at the European level than at the world le so. In terms of h2h ability, Williams was clearly more talented but Cooper was more disciplined and had better basics, so they're somewhat close overall of I were to make a top h2h HW list.

Having said that, they were totally different fighters. Cooper used a very traditional stance and stalked you looking to set up his big hook. He had good fundamentals but was by no means some sort of clever technician or had immense speed. Williams used his size and athleticism to dig into the body and throw powerful combinations. He could go nack and forth boxing his way to the final round or furiously exchanging. He quite clearly had faster feet than Cooper and was taller with a wider punch variety than Cooper.

So I repeat, you cannot say "forget about Floyd's chin" because with a guy like that you cannot turn your head for 1 second otherwise Floyd might get nailed so stop pretending that this isn't the case. I will again point to hypothetical examples such as Shavers vs Bruno or Whyte vs Spinks if you are going to take the Janitor route of focusing almost solely on "levels" while ignoring matchups and stats.

I thought this thread was about Ingo vs Williams, not Patterson? You're going a bit of topic. Part of being in the right place and time is fighting Patterson when he was the champion, so bringing up how he did years later against a washed up Machen is pretty irrelevant.

 

Oh, man, just logged back on here after earlier today and I can't believe there is another 6 pages on this subject. But I had to address this post. Chok, please! Anytime there has anything been said on this website in a complimentary way towards Cleveland Williams, you came out of the woodwork to stomp it out. A cursory look at your thread history shows your last 30 plus posts have been anti-Cleveland Williams posts. So when I say you are the foremost Cleveland Williams-hater on this site, embrace it.

 

Just on Patterson and his defenses, why was there a elimination between Folley and Machen in 1958?

Folley had a decision over Valdes, and two split decisions over Bethea, but not much else. Here are his ten fights leading up to the Machen fight. Johnny Hollins, J D Harvey, Jimmy Wood, Julius Griffin, Jeff Dyer, Edgardo Romero, Monroe Ratliff, Duke Sabedong, Edgardo Romero, Garvin Sawyer. As far as I know, none were rated, and off boxrec, none had posted 20 career wins. Not even fringe contenders.

Here is Machen's last ten fights before the Folley elimination. Nino Valdes (KO), Walter Hafer, Julio Mederos, John Holman (KO), Johnny Summerlin, Joey Maxim, Joey Maxim, Bob Baker, Edgardo Romero, Hurricane Jackson (KO)

This seems much the more impressive list. Summerlin had KO'd Folley in 1955. I wouldn't think Machen should have had to fight Folley at all for a title shot in 1958. Why did he? I have a theory. Folley was a Korean War vet with a distinguished combat record. Machen had served a stretch in prison for armed robbery. Perhaps Klompton or Choklab can enlighten me on why, I presume the NBA, insisted on Machen having this fight. In the event, Machen didn't win it which did put a cloud over his status.

As for Roy Harris, he wasn't that bad of a contender, if clearly not as outstanding as Machen. He had won all his 23 fights and had beaten Pastrano and Baker. A lot of guys who have gotten shots have done less. Of course, he was a boxer without a punch, which certainly appealed to D'Amato. I personally have no quibble with Harris getting a shot if Machen had gotten his deserved shot earlier in the year.

Is being an ex-con the reason Machen didn't get that shot?

 

You mean like Patterson did in his 4th defense against Brian London?

 

Chok has a very unhealthy obsession with Williams going as far to bring him up in threads that have nothing to do with him.

 

I never said anything about Williams getting a shot at Patterson before Ingo. You truncated my post. And I wouldn't be bringing up Henry Cooper as some great win. He was 14-4 at the time and had been stopped in his last two bouts. He was on no ones radar.

 

Bokaj is another one who seems to have an agenda against Williams. A real shame as he's otherwise a very objective poster.

 

You listed two guys in three fights that briefly snuck into the rankings immediately before Williams fought them and then quickly exited the rankings. Daniels ended his career losing half of his fights. Miteff ended his career losing 1/3 of his fights, usually by knockout. When he fought Williams he was 1-3 in his last four fights. How he was rated is a complete mystery. Williams drew with Machen, he did not beat him, and if you think Machen somehow got a gift decision in Williams hometown youre nuts. And frankly the way you characterized that fight is comical. The ringside reports said Williams landed harder, Machen scored more often. Williams came away with a cut mouth and swollen right eye. Machen was unmarked. Machen asked for an immediate rematch, guess who turned that down. Williams handlers. The fight was called boring, cautious, and unsatisfactory. It was said that Williams wasnt as aggressive as expected and that there wasnt a single hard right hand thrown the entire fight. In the later rounds Eddie Machen was forcing the fight and backing up a surprised Williams. Machen had a big tenth round which secured the draw for him. He was knocked out by Liston both times clearly after giving him trouble in the first round of their first fight. The second fight isnt even competitive for that short amount of time. So yeah, my point stands. Do you consider Miteff and Daniels among the best Williams fought? Seriously? If you want to consider Daniels and Miteff among the best fighters Williams faced before his prime was prematurely ended (13 years into his career at 30 years old LOL) then we can agree he had an incredibly padded record and could excel against also rans. Because thats being generous to Miteff and Daniels (who gave him plenty of problems).

And as many have pointed out Terrell was unranked, even when Williams fought him the second time. Unranked. At his best Terrell wasnt exactly a legend and the best Williams could do against unranked preprime Terrell was a TKO stoppage (in the first fight against a more green version of Terrell) and a loss. Just because Terrell got a name later does not mean Williams beat the best Terrell ever was. And thats the entire point, which every Williams nuthugger on this thread cant come to terms with: He was nothing more than a middling gate keeper even at his best. I get it, some of you are enamored with big muscular men. I dont begrudge you that. But those big muscles on Williams never translated into the dangerous contender you guys want to paint him and they didnt even translate into some Tyson or Listonesque puncher. Its fun to create these fantasies you guys conjure up about Williams losing his prime or getting ducked by Patterson or whatever but the facts simply dont jive with your narrative. He was ranked lower than almost everyone Patterson defended against when he defended against them and his supposed prime that he supposedly lost out on was coming to an end regardless of whether or not he got shot (and frankly, show me how he looks different in the ring after getting shot than he did before). He had already shown his limitations in the ring. We saw what he was capable of and wasnt he wasnt capable of. So to me all of this supposition is nothing more than a flight of fancy.

 

There was a list printed of the filmed fights of Cleveland Williams. I have seen all of them at one point or another.

I just re-watched the second Terrell-Williams fight. Williams was a good fighter, but to me it looked like he was rather slow. Terrell got off first over and over. Williams seemed a straight up, rather stiff fighter, with scant head or torso movement, so he ate jabs and right crosses all night. I didn't see anything impressive about his footwork. He looked more like a come forward plodder, although a bit smoother than most. Probably because he was always a beat behind the quicker Terrell, he missed a lot of punches, and sometimes by huge margins. Stamina? Terrell looked out of gas at the end, but Williams was too spent to take advantage. With all the jabbing Terrell did, a right cross would have been an expected counter, but Williams didn't seem to have much of one. He relied on the left hook even with Terrell circling to his left.

My reaction was there was something missing. For all his size and imposing physique, Williams seemed to have to think about it to go on the offense. When Terrell got off first, which was most of the time, Williams didn't effectively counter. I wouldn't consider him much of a counter-puncher. It is like for all his physical attributes, he just wasn't a "natural" in the ring.

if you put Williams back in the pre-Joe Louis era, he might well have been champion. If he got a shot at a paper title in a 15 rounder against Terrell, he would have been about an even money choice. But Liston? We know what happened. Ali? Williams would have looked hopelessly slow at any time I think.

I scored this fight 6-4 for Terrell. It was competitive and I imagine some others will disagree.

As for Johansson, the difference was he won the big fights which mattered. That is true in any sport. It is why Kansas City is the NFL champion and not Baltimore.

 

You mean when he was already signed to fight his #1 and when his #2 backed out of a signed contract to fight Patterson as a tuneup for Patterson's #1? Thats how absurd you guys sound. Patterson was literally in the process of fighting his #1 and #2. His #2 literally ducked him and he fought his #1. But somehow he should have fought guys that those guys beat. Makes absolutely no sense and frankly if history had gone the way you wish it had youd still be here claiming Patterson ducked Johansson and Cooper.

 

No, I think I will bring them up. A heavyweight champ doesn't get a day off with a non-title. Everything is on the line and should be against your best possible opponent. I love Floyd, but he fought far better fighters as a contender than he did as a champ. And I will always say he is to be lauded for taking on Liston in defiance of D'Amato. When Cus was running things, there was very little risk to Floyd. Let's look at his challengers. Hurricane Jackson - he had been clearly outpointed by Floyd in an eliminator to the point where there was no reason to take him on again. But somehow Harry Kessler scored their first fight in his favor. I'm sure Cus jumped on that one as a viable defense by bringing up the split decision. After his next fight against Eddie Machen, Hurricane had his license pulled for his own health. Next, Pete Rademacher - calling him a warmup for Ingo is silly. It was 2 years before the Ingo fight. Man, that's a helluva warmup. Next, Roy Harris - decent fighter who couldn't skin a grape with his best punch. Again, Cus jumped on that one. Next, Brian London - loser of his last fight to Henry Cooper. How is he getting a title shot? (That's a rhetorical question). And we come to Ingo - even though Zora or Eddie should have had any one of those title shots previously mentioned. But Ingo was marketable and he made the best of it. Lastly, in the 2nd reign, we have Tom mcNeeley. Clearly Cus still hadn't grown a pair. The best wins on Tom's record was Willi Besmanoff and George Logan. Good God! How many viable contenders were again sidestepped including Williams, who by this time, was a solidly established contender in the top 10?

It's getting late guys, let's put this thread to bed. I only jumped on the thread because I didn't like the partiality shown towards Ingo in the OP.