Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

Common opponents between Valdes and Williams

Omelio Agramonte, Wayne Bethea, **** Richardson, John Holman, Alonzo Johnson, Alex Miteff, Bob Satterfield, Eddie Machen

Valdes record: 4-5 with 2 knockouts

Williams record: 6–1-1 with 5 knockouts

Yup, they're sure comparable.

 

I'm pretty sure, I heard that Liston's eye closing was a result of being thumbed. Could be wrong though.

 

As I said, even if Williams has power edge it's not that important. Both were very hard hitters and neither was great in other aspects.

 

You didn't add Liston, so I should check credibility of your list. Will do it later.

 

Forgot about Liston Valdez would then be 4-6 while Williams would be 6-3-1.

 

Also the Richardson win went down as a dq so that's 4 KOs not 5.

 

I think Machen and Folley was because of the IBC. Because why would D'Amato (or anyone) fear Machen and Folley? They were spoilers/counterpunchers and not known as hard hitters. If anything the very active, hard hitting and fast handed Patterson matches up well with those two.

I don't know how much it would have boosted Patterson's credibility by picking another challenger on the fringes on the top 10 (and sometimes outside it), which is what Williams was during his reign. Patterson did fight Johansson and (eventually) Liston, arguably the two biggest punchers of the late 50s/early 60s. If he was avoiding punchers, why fight the guy who just destroyed Machen?

 

This is the question that remains avoided in the "Patterson ducked punchers" narrative.

An undefeated Euro champ steps up a level against a world class fighter and steamrolls him - why on earth wouldn't that be a challenge to sidestep if you were afraid of punchers?

 

Both beat him and he defended against Liston against the wishes of his manager.

 

You dispute Williams had a power edge over Valdes.Thats the crux of it.

 

In fairness, Valdez was slipping while Williams was peaking.

 

If you add Liston, isn't their records like this:

Williams 6-3-1 with 3 KO's and 3 KO defeats. Williams KO'd only Holman, Johnson, and Miteff. Am I missing something?

Valdes 4-6 with 2 KO's and 2 KO defeats.

Of course how would Williams compare say, to Marty Marshall. The common opponents were Liston, Satterfield, and Young Jack Johnson, as far as I can tell.

Marshall went 2-4 with 1 KO and 1 KO defeat. Williams went 1-3 with 1 KO and 3 KO defeats. So I guess one could come up with the idea that Marshall and Williams are about the same, or Marshall better. But in boxing, you don't fight exactly the same men even if you are fighting the same names, as boxers are different at different times.

Agramonte and Holman were at the end of the line for both men, but guys like Bethea, Miteff, and Johnson were young and fresh and on the way up when they fought Valdes, but shop worn and falling into the "record padding" opponent class by the time they got to Williams.

But you make a fair point and as I think Valdes and Williams are such an interesting comparison, I aim to dig a bit deeper in another post on Nino's record.

 

No I did and you keep trying to use my words to create a straw man argument. If you cant admit that Williams has one of the weakest records for someone so many people seem to think was a genuine bomber we can end all discussion here because trumpeting guys like Miteff and Daniels as among the best proves my point not yours.

Yeah, my mistake, Ernie Terrell cracked the WBA ratings at number 10 five days before he fought Williams. Another lower tier contender that Williams couldnt beat much less knockout. Wow. No wonder he had everyone quaking in their boots...

 

Williams vs Valdes

Total Records
Williams---90 wins, 13 losses, 1 draw, 60 KO's, 8 KO'd by
Valdes-----48 wins, 18 losses, 3 draws, 1 NC, 36 KO's, 5 KO'd by

Williams----60 KO's in 94 fights, 63.8%
Valdes------36 KO's in 70 fights, 51.4%
Solid Edge to Williams

Williams----60 KO's in 80 wins, 75%
Valdes------36 KO's in 48 wins, 75%
Dead Even--the difference between the two in KO percentage is the much larger number of non-wins for Valdes.

Record against fighters who appeared in the Ring's yearly rankings
Williams----11 wins, 11 losses, 1 draw, 6 KO's, 8 KO'd by
Valdes------16 wins, 12 losses, 11 KO's, 2 KO'd by
Edge Valdes--Williams fought 24.5% of his fights against this group, and scored a 50% victory percentage. Valdes fought 40% of his fights against this group and scored a 57.1% victory percentage. Defenders of Williams can make the point that Valdes lost and drew quite a bit more than Williams to fighters who never appeared in the Ring's yearly top ten.

Now as I'm certain that it will be brought up that 7 of those Williams defeats, and 5 of the KO'd by, were after his shooting. So how would Williams record before the shooting compare to Valdes career record?
Williams----11 wins, 4 losses, 1 draw, 6 KO's, 3 KO'd by
Valdes------16 wins, 12 losses, 11 KO's, 2 KO'd by
Williams has the edge in winning percentage in far fewer fights, and of course Valdes has his declining years in this evaluation and Williams does not. On KO percentage, interestingly enough, Williams has a KO percentage of 37.5%, against Valdes percentage of 39.3%. So this one undercuts a claim for Williams being the stronger puncher.

How did the two do against opponents who appeared in the Ring's yearly rankings?
Williams KO'd John Holman, Alex Miteff, Ernie Terrell, Alonzo Johnson, Young Jack Johnson, Roger Rischer

Valdes KO"d Omelio Agramonte, Heinz Neuhaus, Karel Sys, Hurricane Jackson, Don C-ckell, D. Richardson, Joe Erskine, John Summerlin, Harold Carter, Pat McMurtry, Brian London

Bringing it down to anyone who ever appeared in the top five:
Williams KO'd John Holman and Ernie Terrell (neither rated when he KO'd them) and the only two such men he defeated.
Valdes KO'd Karel Sys, Hurricane Jackson, Don C-ckell, Harold Carter, and Pat McMurtry, and defeated Ezzard Charles and John Holman.

For me the difference, and where the dispute lies, is that Valdes is almost a totally known quantity, as he fought so many good men for so long. We can easily gauge against whom he proved superior and against whom he came up short. The only surprise in his record is the upset of Charles. Williams not fighting many top men leaves him a question mark with supporters and critics filling in the blank spaces differently. As for me, I would conclude that the punching power of these two is pretty much on the same plane, with perhaps Valdes the slightly more proven puncher. And certainly the more proven fighter.

 

All this power didn't make him better fighter than Valdes, so what is the point? This forum is way too much into who hits harder...