Why do the denizens of this forum think Rocky is blown out vs Liston but......

Marciano was great, but Joe Louis is Joe Louis.

To me Joe Louis is, besides 1979 Holmes, the only man who would have given mid-60s Ali a very, very hard fight. Marciano couldn't have kept up with that Ali, imo would have gotten stopped on cuts.

 

I'd pick Joe Frazier over all three.

But yeah, Marciano and Louis are two of the greatest HWs, and fighters, of all time.

Agreed, Ali's way too fast for Rocky.

 

So 6 posters pick Rocky. Are they the same 6 posters who said Liston destroys him?

 

Not really!Louis is bigger,taller,wider,was better gighter,had faster hands and threw better combos!He was much harder to beat than Liston!
Louis also beat better people than Liston which proves he had equal punch!

 

Nope Marciano would beat him late very bad!
He would do that much better than Foster or Leotis Martin!
George would maybe beat Marciano but Liston would not!
Liston was backed by no names!Marciano is all wrong for him!Better fighter,harder puncher,better heart,chin and stamina!
Marciano would stop him late worse than Martin and Ali did!

 

Ali was alot better fighter than Frazier,Norton...but still he lost!It is not about who is better looking or who is more scientific but who is more efective!Louis is alot better and Ezzard Charles also than Rocky but still he beat both of them!
Again being better fighter does not mean always that someone would win against someone!
Tyson is also much better than Foreman but would he beat him?I do not think so!

 

Nope!He would not be stopped on cuts!You clearly do not remmember that Middleberger went full 12 rounds with Ali!
Oscar Bonavena did that to and Joe Frazier beat him!
Marciano is slow but again faster than Bonavena and stronger,while he was also stronger with better stamina than Frazier!The fight would be full 15 rounds without stopping on cuts!Bonavena and Frazier are not Marciano!

 

Well Rocky is slow bu also faster,stronger,better stamina,heart and chin than Bonavena an yet Bonavena lasted full 12 rounds!
Also I know that Marciano is better than Frazier and that would do equal good or even better according to Ali himself!

 

Agreed, but it is why wasn't blown out in two by Foreman.... your analogy was inaccurate and predictable. Especially as Ali beat both in return fights, and was past prime for Norton.

No, actually. It's not. It's about styles and a plethora of other things, there's no blanket formula for winning a fight.

Yeah when both were past it and near shot. Marciano doesn't beat either of them in their primes.

Your going against your own rule here. Louis was both more scientific and more effective than Rocky.

Glad we agree on somet.

Is Tyson much better than Foreman? Never mind, it's irrelevant. We agree Foreman wins.

Bonavena gets stopped sooner vs an Ali who hasn't only had 3 rounds in as many years. And I don't see what your point is, since Bonavena won like 2 rounds in 14 vs Ali in horrendous shape.

You think* that. You're wrong, BTW.

Boxers say a lot of things. Ali was being humble, he'd have never have said the sort if his opponent was actually Marciano.

If you want me to reply further, please write in paragraphs. I come on here to talk boxing with like-minded individuals, not feel sorry for the handicapped.

 

It was blown by Foreman until Foreman gassed because of exhaustion!Foreman beat his body so bad he pissed blood for weeks!My analogy is actually very good!Ali did beat Frazier in retur but not bad as Frazier beat him in first fight and also Frazier almost beat him in third fight!He was not past prime for Norton!He was not past prime until Thrilla!Norton beat him once and once was robbed!

Cmon man do you really belive in that?It about only who is efective and about styles!Style makes fights but fighters too!Tyson is alot better than Holyfield,Douglas...but he lost that because they were more efective!

Nope they were not!Charles was in his prime till Marciano fight!He beat Walcott and Louis!He showed decline few fights later in Valdes fight!
And Charles was like only 2 years older than Rocky and that is not past!Marciano would beat any year version of Charles!
Louis was not in his prime but still 36,5 years old and atleast in shape and active unlike Holmes!Louis stated that Marciano would beat him even in his prime because preassure fighters are nightmare for him which Godoy and Paolino proves also Maxie!Marciano is much better than them!Louis would lose by UD or late TKO in Walcott style!Louis gastank is not very good late!Louis was more scientific and more efective but still he lost against Rocky and Charles which proves my point!

Tyson is better if we are talking about skills,headmovement,speed,combinations.....but Foreman was more efective because his chin and power!It is not irrelevant!Frazier was also better scientific fighter than Foreman yet he lost aginst him!

If anyone was past his best it was Bonavena who did not fight anyone since Frazier and Leotis which was in 1968!He had 3 or 4 fights after that until Ali fight in 1971!Bonavena from mid 60s would last full 12 rounds with Ali without getting tired because his lifestyle was better then!And what about George Chuvalo?He lasted twice 15 rounds with Ali and even knowing he was bleeder he was not stopped on cuts?And what about Wepner a bum also a bleeder?

I do think that and everyone think that!BTW I am not wrong!Even Frazier himself admitt Marciano was better than him!Marciano also proves that he was better than Frazier in everything!He was just a better fighter!

Ali was not humble Ali was honest!He had respect for some opponents and never talked bad about them like Chuvalo,Norton....
Ali also said that even old Marciano hurt him in sparing and that he was better and harder puncher than Frazier!
Marciano was just better than Frazier in everything and not only Ali said that but Frazier did also!Marciano used both hands,was harder puncher,neter chin,better heart,stamina....he was just Frazier 2.0!
George Foreman rated Marciano higher, pointing out that Frazier had a great left hook but Marciano could hit equally hard with either hand.

Archie Moore was asked to compare Frazier with Marciano, just prior to Joe’s fight with Jimmy Ellis. Moore said, “Frazier is a big, strong kid, but he’s no Rocky Marciano. Marciano was the strongest man, bar none, that I ever got in the ring with. And I fought some strong men.”
Frazier said when he watched Ali rope-a-dope Foreman he said, “He couldn’t get away with that with Marciano.” (Book “Smoking Joe”)

 

Liston and Louis do have similarities. Both had powerful jabs, slow feet, devastating combinations, and the rare combination of having power+stamina to box all 12-15 rounds. They were primarily boxer-puncher types who had trouble with fast guys and defensive technicians.

The differences:

-Louis had faster hands while Liston had heavier clubbing hands
-Louis' best punches were possibly his laser like right cross and combinations while Liston had sledgehammer hooks and uppercuts that launched a guy's jaw in the air.
-Liston went to the body more often from what I've seen.
-Louis tended to box first, went for the knockout later. Liston tended to slug first and try to take your head off, then box if he had to.
-Liston was bulkier and strong as an ox while Louis was more lean and having wirey strength and fast twitch/explosive muscle.
-Louis was a better inside fighter and knew old school tactics/grappling at close range. Liston's long arms and power meant he was better at long and mid range (although he was far from being too stuck up to get his hands dirty in the trenches).
-Louis had better defense and also knew the lost art of parrying blows/picking off shots mid swing and deflecting them. Liston had underrated defense but not quite as good as Louis and had a very basic textbook guard.
-Liston had a much better chin but not as much heart and could get frustrated or resort to illegal tactics. Louis could be dropped surprisingly easily (possibly balance issues and/or not seeing a punch coming), but always sprang right back up. You had to hammer Louis with a barrage over several rounds to stop him and he has gotten off the floor to win while Liston hasn't (although Liston did show incredible toughness fighting with a broken jaw against Marshall and a broken bloody nose against Williams).
-Louis was better at making adjustments (especially in rematches) and had overall better ring IQ.
-both had killer instinct and didn't let a guy off the hook when hurt, but Liston's x factor was that he was both more intimidating (probably #1 in this category) and was like a horror movie monster when he smelled blood. Louis could be like this on rare occasions (such as the cold, calculating beat down of Schmeling and Baer) but not as often as Liston.

In regards to Rocky Marciano, it's pretty clear looking at this list that if he were to fight either guy, the fight would be completely different. The only similarities would be that in the early rounds both Liston and Louis would be hammering away with their powerful jabs and attempting to force Rocky back. The difference is Louis was more willing to allow a phone booth type of fight at close range and would attempt to set up traps with his lethal combinations. Liston on the other hand simply wouldn't allow it win or lose and would constantly force Rocky to take a step back with his tremendous strength and bludgeoning blows. Against Louis, Rocky would need to smother him and go to the body to try to negate Louis' hand speed and stamina. He would have the advantage in chin and could drag Louis into deep waters in a prolonged war. Against Liston, his lack of ability to fight on the back foot or use lateral movement might cost him dearly. His only chance at victory would be to slug and hope to land something big or try and time Liston's long reach and counter him with overhands or hooks. Either way, he would get busted up badly and would inevitably hit the canvas at some point and his superior stamina and heart might not become a factor in the first place if he gets stopped.

I favor Louis 55:45 over Rocky and Liston 70:30.

 

Yeah, so Ali beat him in return and did better vs Foreman. Thanks for the update.

You don't believe that? When did I say I did? I said there's a plethora of things which count towards a win. Styles is the biggest one. Ever heard 'Styles make Fights'? It's true.

Are you good? Bonavena had had about 10 fights between Frazier and Ali, and fought multiple times a year.

George Chuvalo won about 6 rounds out of 30.

Ali cut Bugner in the first round.

Nah you are. Frazier > Marciano. If not, name me a fighter who was as good as Ali that Marciano beat.

And Marciano never had a better defence than Frazier, or footwork, or speed. He absolutely was not better at Everything than Frazier.

Y'know there's a trend in boxing where people overrate the guys who fought around their era? Marciano benefitted that more than anyone I can think of (maybe other than Dempsey).

Y'know Ali spent years as Frazier's rival, right? I'd hardly use that as an objective source.

Foreman is always respectful to the past. He's also almost always wrong in situations like this.

Moore also said that Sheppard hit harder than Marciano, do you believe that? Moore also trained Foreman, do you believe Marciano was stronger than him too? Furthermore, why does Strength even matter here, it's not like Ali is gonna meet Marciano head on.

Frazier made a good point, Ali couldn't box off the ropes vs Marciano.

Good job on the paragraphs though, I'm proud! @swagdelfadeel I'm tagging you in bro, I've gotta help my dad out and wanna watch some Holyfield.

 

Liston kills Rocky,, Louis does too it just takes him longer