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Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by swagdelfadeel, Dec 9, 2017.

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Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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FrankinDallas said: ↑

Archie Moore was a light punching hw?
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Yes. He was not a hard puncher at hw .

Charlietf, Jun 24, 2020

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George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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swagdelfadeel said: ↑

I'd say Patterson was better than Charles
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George Crowcroft, Jun 24, 2020

#197

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Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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FrankinDallas said: ↑

Archie Moore was a light punching hw?
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Yes I laughed at that too.

Gazelle Punch, Jun 24, 2020

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Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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George Crowcroft said: ↑

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At hw he was

Charlietf, Jun 24, 2020

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choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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Charlietf said: ↑

Yes. He was not a hard puncher at hw .
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Try telling that to poor Alejandro Lavorante. The 6’3” contender who knocked out Zora Folley made it to Ring Magazine front cover, but was stretchered out of the ring after a beating from Archie Moore. A huge upset. And Lavorante was never the same. he never won another fight. In 2 further bouts Alejandro was knocked out by Ali just months later then tragically dying after the bout proceeding the loss to Ali to John Riggins. Lavorante had been a good fighter until he fought Moore with a record of 19-2.

Last edited: Jun 24, 2020

choklab, Jun 24, 2020

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Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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Liston by KO

Berlenbach, Jun 24, 2020

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70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Charlietf said: ↑

Yes. He was not a hard puncher at hw .
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Yeah, not really.

70sFan865, Jun 24, 2020

#202

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I rank Charles higher than Patterson at HW. Not by a lot, but higher.

70sFan865, Jun 24, 2020

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Charlietf Well-Known Member Full Member

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70sFan865 said: ↑

I rank Charles higher than Patterson at HW. Not by a lot, but higher.
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Patterson was better and h2h he wins by ko too

Charlietf, Jun 24, 2020

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Charlietf said: ↑

Patterson was better and h2h he wins by ko too
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That's very debatable.

TBI, Jun 24, 2020

#205
SerbianLoudmouth Overhand right-Suzie Q Full Member

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swagdelfadeel said: ↑

Fight Advantages:
Hand speed- No Advantage, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power- Liston, Chin- Liston, Size- Liston, Defense- No Advantage, Endurance- Marciano, Adaptability- Liston, Foot Speed- No Advantage, Strength- Liston, Jab- Liston, Cuts- Liston:
Total: Liston 8-1-3

Special Notes About the Fight:
Marciano went to the canvas against two light punching heavyweights, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. One of his closest battles was against Walcott in 1952 when he was behind on all three judges score cards when he won by knockout in the 13th round. His other close calls were a split decision over Roland LaStarza and Ezzard Charles. Both of these men weighed less than 190 pounds and all three were great boxers. The only fighter Marciano faced with a similar style to Liston was an over the hill Joe Louis, who he disposed of in eight rounds.
Liston was very dominating destroying all contenders from 1959 till he gained the title in 1962. Only one fighter went the distance and that was Eddie Machen in 1960. Machen was a classic boxer who weighed 196 and hit and ran most of the evening.
Very few fighters stood a chance exchanging blows with Liston. Liston was only down twice in his career, his questionable first round lost to Ali in 1965 and at the age of 38 his knockout loss to Leotis Martin.

Common Opponents:
None.

Keys to the Fight:
Marciano would be giving up about 30 pounds in weight and a lot more in reach. Liston had an 84 inch reach compared to Marciano’s 68. That is a difference of 16 inches in reach alone. Liston’s long jab would be the key to the fight. Marciano was cut in many of his fights and Liston would be able to fight Rocky at long range. Liston did not have many long fights so if the fight went into the late rounds Marciano's endurance would be a factor. Liston loved fighters who attacked him as Patterson did in their two fights. Most fighters who had success against Liston ran.

Results:
Marciano would come out early trying to take the fight to Liston much like Patterson did trying to get inside Liston’s jab. But unlike Patterson, Rocky is a much harder target to find. Marciano is extremely low and Liston is missing a lot of his jabs and becomes frustrated. Although Liston is not dominating the fight, he is winning the rounds and Marciano is cut in the middle rounds. Liston wins on a late round TKO or by decision. The fight is much tougher for Liston than many expected.

Counter Point:
In both the Ali fights, Liston's courage and stamina were always called into question by most experts. Of course the second Ali fight you can throw out because it most certainly was not on the level. Marciano on the other hand was one of the most courageous fighters in the history of the ring.

What the Experts Say:
Most experts have a hard time being objective about Marciano because he never lost a fight. Many forget the many cuts that Marciano endured during his career. Many boxing historians focus on Liston two loses to Ali. Experts like Marciano in a late round knockout.(Most experts rank Marciano over Liston 10 to 7)

Moontan Rating:
* {Looks at fighters' longevity, competition and ability}
Liston 135.1 Marciano 113.8

Liston-Marciano Comparison

by Jim Carney Jr., boxing expert and author who has written numerous articles on boxing and his new book called “Ultimate Tough Guy” on the life and times of James J.Jeffries.

There is not much to choose between these two in hitting power, skill, durability or speed (hand or foot). One assumes the bigger Liston has the edge in strength, but this is far from certain since Marciano worked hard to develop and maintain that. Definite points in Liston's favor are that Rocky was not used to fighting top-rate heavies of Liston's style, let alone a great like Sonny. Rocky did beat a Joe Louis of close to Liston's size, but that Joe - though still good - was not great when he fought Marciano. Rocky beat an excellent crop of heavyweights (Walcott, LaSarza, Charles, Moore, Mathews, etc) but they were all stylish and about his own size.

On the other hand, some of these men were great or near-great fighters and Marciano always overcame them thorough many tough situations. The one time Liston ran into a man his own level (the then Cassius Clay) he unceremoniously quit in his corner. It is almost unimaginable to think of Rocky quitting in his corner. One time, Ezzard Charles almost ripped the Rock's nose off his face yet Marciano stopped him in the next round. He was also almost blinded by liniment in the first Walcott fight and never thought of giving up. Back in Liston's favor, he did perhaps fight more people of the slugging style than Rocky. Included here is at least one man, Cleveland Williams, whose punching power (though not total ability) was at the Liston-Marciano level. Rocky fought some good hitters but probably no one who was at his, Liston's or Williams level in this department.

In terms of the comparable styles each man experienced, I don't recall Sonny ever fighting a powerful, crouching fighter of the Marciano type. There was stylistic similarity between Liston and the Louis of 1951, though that Louis was probably far from Liston's equal. Liston's height advantage (2 or three inches) and weight advantage (25-30 pounds) were substantial but not overwhelming. But Sonny's 16-inch reach advantage may have been too much of an advantage in a key area. He also sometimes cut opponents with his long, ultra-deadly jab.

Conclusion: If Rocky had more experience fighting bigger heavyweights, I would pick him to pull this one off by decision or even late-round kayo on grit and conditioning. Since this is not the case, I give Liston the edge. A kayo is not impossible but more likely, Liston scores two knockdowns and wins by decision or late-round stoppage.

One more thing to add, Liston could be rattled by movers and awkward fighters, such as Bert Whitehurst, Marty Marshall, Eddie Machen and Ali. Sonny never wanted to fight Ernie Terrell, whose style drove him crazy in the gym. But slugger to slugger, Sonny walked through people like Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams, thought they rattled him with good shots. Williams had even broken his nose earlier. I don't think he would have lacked heart in a macho match with Rocky.

http://heavyweightaction.com/Dream Matchups.html#
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You steal this post if you call me stealer but you did thr same thing so?

SerbianLoudmouth, Jul 11, 2020

#206

swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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SerbianLoudmouth said: ↑

You steal this post if you call me stealer but you did thr same thing so?
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Look at the bottom moron.

swagdelfadeel, Jul 11, 2020

#207
SerbianLoudmouth Overhand right-Suzie Q Full Member

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swagdelfadeel said: ↑

Look at the bottom moron.
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It is not valid you atupid moron!
Imbecile you are exposing yourself with hate!

SerbianLoudmouth, Jul 11, 2020

#208
George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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SerbianLoudmouth said: ↑

It is not valid you atupid moron!
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A spelling mistake and grammatical error did nothing to strengthen your case.

George Crowcroft, Jul 11, 2020

#209

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SerbianLoudmouth Overhand right-Suzie Q Full Member

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George Crowcroft said: ↑

A spelling mistake and grammatical error did nothing to strengthen your case.
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Spelling has nothing to do in his defense!
He is still a moron without valid link!

SerbianLoudmouth, Jul 11, 2020

#210

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