Is Mike Tyson the greatest heavyweight KO artist

I think...in terms of hand speed combined with strength, yes. And we can throw in that really good defense.

But Foreman was pretty awe-inspiring out of the gate as well, though in more of a brutal, clubbing way.

Liston might be more arguable as equally ferocious and skilled than Foreman. Mike really was a highly skilled puncher at a ridiculously young age.

He didn't have anything on either Foreman or Liston in terms of intimidation imo. Holy and Douglas broke him of that.

 

Agreed. So many boxers lose their focus, it is scary to think what Tyson would have done if he didnt lose his .. He is the classic example.

 

I think his potential was practically unlimited...but still feel guys like Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis (by the time they started peaking) would have taken him out.

Perhaps if he'd maintained focus, kept Rooney, didn't let the Givens debacle and uh...other improprieties mess him up he would have held the title until Holy took it from him in late 91 or so (probably would have been best to avoid Bowe and Foreman around that time, too). That would have been a five year reign, with probably plenty of defenses. And he would be up more on my top 10 ATGs, certainly.

Just my opinion.

 

that is the unknown... and with Tyson for me it was more of the losing the focus then getting exposed if you will.... I do not think many wanting anything to do with Tyson .. same as Liston

 

Just rewatched the Seldon fight for the first time in a long while, and it wasn't as bad as I remembered.

Yes, Seldon looks quite panicked from the start. He is throwing and keeping busy, but his punches lacks accuracy and follow through - he doesn't really dare to commit to them.

And, yes, the first knock-down is a bit strange. It's unclear if Tyson's elbow connects with the top of Seldon's head or if Seldon loses his balance under the weight of Tyson due to bad footing. He clearly isn't hurt, but it doesn't look to me as he is throwing himself down either.

But the final punch is a vintage Tyson left hook that lands flush, and Seldon is clearly badly hurt by it and the ref is right to wave it off. Most other fighters in a title fight would have taken that punch better, but it is a very good left hook and Seldon's legs are no longer under him as he gets up.

 

I say yes, my man is George and he is stronger and probably harder puncher blow for blow(not by much) but the combination of speed,accuracy, power and ferocity of iron Mike in his prime... The world never saw this before or after him.

 

Based on the action in the ring, I don't see any case for Tillis winning, so I disagree with the judges who had it one round from a draw. Who were the people at the time who thought Tillis won?

He was only 19, stepping up in competition against a more experienced opponent, and going the distance for the first time. You don't think he maybe deserves a little leeway for that one? And he still won clearly regardless. Berbick was eight fights away.

Remember this is a skinny 19-year-old Clay who was several years removed from contention. He might win but the savvy and much more experienced Tillis could well make him look bad.

A teenage amateur is going to stop a professional Quick Tillis? This isn't the 27-year-old Smokin Joe who beat Ali.

Thomas was considered the #1 heavyweight in the world barely a year before fighting Tyson. Terrific jab, iron chin, never been knocked off his feet before. But according to you, he's just a "cokehead". Which is untrue in any case. He was on heroin in his teens and relapsed into drugs after the Holyfield fight, according to his book.

Biggs kicked the drug habit at the start of his pro career. According to his "best I faced" interview, he hasn't been back on them since.

Tubbs was always in that shape. Nevertheless he was a very talented and skilled fighter with quick hands and feet, and a former world champion. Check out his fight with a young Riddick Bowe a few years later, which was much closer than Tyson-Tillis. And like Holmes, Thomas etc, no one had got to Tubbs the way Tyson did.

I don't think the Douglas fight was luck. It was Tyson's poor showing combined with Douglas giving a unexpectedly terrific performance, like Braddock vs Baer. I don't, however, think Douglas was any better or fought much differently than a number of fighters Tyson beat. The stars aligned and it was just his night. Even on his worst night as champion, Tyson still came close to KO'ing Douglas (which of course he rarely gets credit for).

And I already pointed out a number of fighters who were no better than Douglas and tried to jab and move against Tyson and failed, except you have some convenient excuse why none of them should count. That last Holmes loss was a split decision to Spinks that most thought Holmes won. As for being old, Holmes showed he was still a very good fighter even in his 40s.

Did they miss the part where Tyson got past Pink's jab and KO'd him?

Of course they were and obviously no one concluded that the way to beat Tyson was by charging forward and slugging with him. The point I'm making is that a number of fighters came up with a similar gameplan to Douglas and lost, including Thomas. All these stick and movers tried and failed to beat Tyson, then all of a sudden one of them wins and that proves that was the right style to beat him all along? Do you think Thomas or Tucker would have beaten the Tyson that fought Douglas?

I don't think anyone breezes past Liston's jab and KOs him in two rounds... so I dunno what point you're trying to prove.

Marshall knocked him down in one of their rematches.

 

I disagree with this. None of Tyson's previous opponents held the centre of the ring as well as Douglas without suffocating the action by clinching. Douglas moved by giving angles or taking a single step back and not by circling, which is why he could still hold the centre of the ring.

He also roughed Tyson up in clinches and ended exchanges that Tyson had initiated. He dominated at range and in close.

These are things that I can't remember anyone doing before against Tyson and not again until Holyfield (who was more static and relied more on the inside game, though).

Otherwise I agree with you that it wasn't as simple as just jabbing against Tyson, you had to do it very well and intelligently (you had to vary in terms of pacing and doubling it and following with the right now and then and also feinting and then at times letting the right go directly after a feint). Douglas did that and the things mentioned above. That's why he won imo, not because Tyson wasn't having his best night.

 

It still amazes me how often Douglas got away with the lead rights...I guess it's the fact that he did (where so many others got their head knocked off trying) that makes me question whether Mike really was prepared for the fight, as opposed to the (obviously stellar) fight plan Buster brought.

 

Mike did counter it at times, but I think the key was that Douglas had got his jab working so well, which made Mike react more to the feints. If you don't have confidence in your jab and the opponent doesn't respect it, feinting with it won't work that well.

And Tyson had what I see as a technical flaw (even though I think it was the way he was taught) that I think worked in Douglas favour. He often tilted sideways, even bending at the waist, instead of slipping in the traditional way by twisting forward and to the side. That meant that he was open for the right when he tilted to the right to avoid a left.

 

Well I disagree. From the opening round Tyson looked slow and lethargic, no footwork, no zip, basically a stationery target barely even throwing any punches. Did Tyson throw a single combination the entire fight? A lot of Tyson's opponents found him difficult to hit cleanly, yet Douglas was hitting him at will throughout. He probably ate more punches than he had in every previous fight. Was Douglas really that much better than Tucker, Thomas, Tubbs or Biggs to perform so much better? I'd pick the Tucker who lost to Tyson in 87 to beat Tyson in Tokyo as well.

Look at, say, Baer-Braddock or Ali-Spinks. While the underdog undoubtedly fought a great fight and deserved their win, the champ's lack of preparation and poor conditioning were clearly an important factor in those results as well. Especially when you take into account the rest of Braddock and Leon's careers.

 

I haven't really watched either Baer-Braddock and Ali-Spinks, so I can't say if they did something that previous opponent hadn't.

But Baer had lost to several fighters on Braddock's level or lower before and Ali hadn't convincingly beat a good opponent since Manilla almost three years earlier, so in hindsight it's a bit part to see why they were such upsets (perhaps less so in Ali's case, since Spinks was so green).

Tyson hadn't lost a round for years and came off a first round KO over a good contender.

But all that aside, I don't know who you see who like Douglas gave angles while controlling the centre of the ring, roughing Tyson up in the clinches and ending exchanges Tyson initiated.

Douglas showed boxing skills I've never seen a guy that size (ca 6'4 and 235 lbs) show before or after. That's why he won.

 

Great observation.

 

Baer hadn't lost a fight in four years. Ali hadn't lost a fight in five years. Both were fighting a lightly-regarded challenger and in both cases the champ's lack of focus (or failing to take the opponent seriously) was felt to be a big factor in the results.

Fighting a Tyson who was slow and sluggish, easy to hit and barely throwing any punches. Buster didn't look as good in his previous fight against Oliver McCall and he looked terrible in his next fight against Holyfield. So either Buster was an all-time great for about 45 minutes or Tyson made him look better than he was.

 

I don't think Tyson looked slower than normal, but Douglas doing the things I've described and doing them so well made him hesitate a lot more.

And, no, Douglas never looked as good at any other time, but sometimes the stars and the style match-up combine. Bowe in the first fight against Holyfield is one such example, Norton when he beat Ali, McCall when he beat Lewis, Sanders when he beat Wlad, Ruiz when he beat Joshua are some others. Also Tillis against Tyson and Tubbs against Bowe.

But who did you see the do that Douglas and I described in the earlier posts?