With declining standards, are Lee Savold and Ernest Terrell now legit champions?

I'm a little more disappointed in NYSAC sticking their nose's in 1968 for Frazier's title. I mean at least Jimmy Ellis had to win 4 ranking opponents in a row for it (I'm counting Persol victory for Ellis to even qualify to get in the tournament) One thing bothers me Terrell and Ellis were not the true Champions of the time WHEN YOU HAD ALI & FRAZIER around. Ali did not win the sanctioning body WBA world title three times !!! He won it 4 times! Liston, Terrell, Foreman and Spinks. they almost took his title a third time, yet he retired anyway.

Muhammad Ali only lost his title in the ring once.

 

why shouldnt they have? Why should Frazier, who fought his way to a #1 ranking now have to enter a tournament and fight two to three more contenders (one of whom hed already beaten and another who had never defeated a ranked HW) sitting on the shelf potentially two years? And why act like Ellis deserved anything for beating Persol, a light heavyweight?? Ultimately Frazier proved the righteousness of his argument and claim by battering three of the best men in the tournament.

 

I agree that the same guys shouldn't tie up the title, like Patterson, Liston, and Johansson did. But rematches in title fights are a time-honored custom. They're the right thing to do.

They should've / could've said, "We'll allow the rematch, but it has to be within six months, and the winner has to fight someone else in the top five within six months of the rematch." So we'd see Johansson-Patterson I in June 1959, Patterson-Johnasson II in November 1959, Patterson-Johansson III in May 1960, and Patterson vs. Liston, Folley, Machen, or Cooper before November.

Let's say Patterson chooses to fight Cooper. He kayos him, then has to take on his mandatory, Liston, by May of 1961. Liston get him in one, Patterson gets the rematch in October 1961 and is stopped in one again, and Sonny Liston has time to get in a few defenses prior to losing to Clay / Ali in late 1963.

This rule would still allow the champion to take a two or three month vacation before fighting again. Wouldn't it be nice if we all got two to three month vacations twice a year?

The problem with multiple organizations and multiple titles is, even when mandatory defense rules are enforced, they have to match "available" fighters for their vacant titles. Thus #1 Ernie Terrell fights #4 Eddie Machen, because #2 Patterson and #3 Chuvalo aren't available. Or #1 Joe Frazier fights (approximate) #10 Buster Mathis for the same reason (though a few higher ranked fighters were already eliminated in the WBA tourney, or didn't participate in the first place (Ramos, Corletti)).

 

Terrell never had any connections to the underground.

 

His manager was connected.

 

Ultimately Frazier proved the righteousness of his argument and claim by battering three of the best men in the tournament.[/QUOTE]
Bonavena, Chuvalo, and Mathis?

 

ahh... I see. Thnx for the clarification.

 

Bonavena, Chuvalo, and Mathis?[/QUOTE]
Neither Chuvalo or Mathis were in the tournament .

 

Neither Chuvalo or Mathis were in the tournament .[/QUOTE]
they were in the other tournament. But I figured it out, Bonavena, Ellis, and Quarry.

 

they were in the other tournament. But I figured it out, Bonavena, Ellis, and Quarry.[/QUOTE]
There was no other, Frazier beat Mathis for the NY State title, Mathis was not ranked by Ring magazine.
The 8 man WBA1968 tournament was
Martin
Bonavena
Mildenberger
Spencer
Terrell
Ellis
Patterson
Quarry

 

There was no other, Frazier beat Mathis for the NY State title, Mathis was not ranked by Ring magazine.
The 8 man WBA1968 tournament was
Martin
Bonavena
Mildenberger
Spencer
Terrell
Ellis
Patterson
Quarry[/QUOTE]
I know the 8-man tournament. But Frazier, Mathis and Chuvalo were all in title eliminators at the same title. Its weird, cuz I've never seen it officially, just in casual reference, that the Chuvalo-Frazier fight was in some way a title elimator.

 

I know the 8-man tournament. But Frazier, Mathis and Chuvalo were all in title eliminators at the same title. Its weird, cuz I've never seen it officially, just in casual reference, that the Chuvalo-Frazier fight was in some way a title elimator.[/QUOTE]
Frazier fought Chuvalo in1967.

 

I want the bar lowered just enough that Kid McCoy is considered a world heavyweight champion, but no more after that.

 

Frazier-Chuvalo wasnt a title eliminator in any way shape or form. In fact not long after that fight the WBA arbitrarily dropped Frazier all the way to 9 in their ratings because he declined to enter the tournament, despite being unbeaten and considered the biggest threat in the division. The WBA was all over the place at that time, scrambling to maintain order in the wake of several knee jerk decisions. It was all of this crap, stripping Ali not once but twice, dropping Frazier, bumping fighters ahead of him or into the ratings altogether who had never been rated before much less beaten a rated fighter that led to the WBC gaining more credibility and beginning to fill that vacuum. Its just like today where one ABC makes a stupid decision and fumbles the ball and everybody starts relying more heavily on another ABC because they like their ratings or decisions better at that moment in time.

 

Yes, he did. After winning the WBA belt in Chicago, Terrell was denied a boxing license in New York because of his mob ties.