Why is Carlos Monzon ranked higher than Marvin Hagler?

Not only were they draws most of them were with fellow Argentines,2 being in Brazil against a Brazilian.

 

There appears to be a desperate attempt here by a tiny minority to insinuate Monzon was the beneficiary in some of these draws,ie hometown bias.In fact nearly all of his draws were with fellow countrymen and a lot in their hometown of Buenos Aries.So where would be the motive ?
All that's been produced in this disparaging of Monzon's early record is a lot of smoke and mirrors.Or to be blunt, **** and wind.
eg,"how many times was he actually down in those draws?"
Easily countered by ,how many times was his opponent actually down?
Did he deserve the wins in those 2 draws with Brazilians in Brazil?


I'd just like to add I think Monzon was a real shitty human being,and Hagler is a decent guy,and that there is nothing between them for talent ,
one can reasonably pick either as the slightly better or more likely to win H2H.
Personally I'd rather watch Marvin in action any day of the week.
As for the lack of footage of Monzon's early fights,where can we see Hagler's first 28 bouts ,21 of which were in his home town?
What we are seeing here by this minority smacks strongly of an underlying agenda
Those who pick Hagler should confine themselves to the facts and thankfully most of them have done.

 

Yeah - It's interesting how the apparent blemishes on Monzon's record garner so much focus, while certain other posters add a dump on his championship with abandon.

I can understand why people might have a genuine curiosity about those earlier contests resulting in Losses and Draws, and wish that they could watch them, but I do find the some of the speculation about them on this and the Monzon/Antuofermo thread (as well as many a thread before these) a bit strange.

No Boxer's ledger is beyond reproach, but the focus on Monzon's negatives, by some, just stretches a bit too far for it to engender credibility in the cases put against him. The 'he was taller' argument is an angle with such a low bar of structural integrity, it's just not funny anymore.

My view on Monzon's losses and draws is that they have little to no material impact on his overall, historical rating. From a career perspective, they led to one hell of an 8-year run, which to me is a fair indicator of his improving over the years. That's about as far as my interest in those earlier bouts goes - in what ways did he improve? What else could one extract from seeing the bouts that he lost and drew?

Still, I am sure the wheels against Monzon's Boxing career will continue.


As a boxer and boxing icon, I favor Hagler, by far.
But, I rate Monzon higher, historically, and only by a razor thin margin. I'd also back Monzon to beat Hagler in a one-off bout. Although, I do think it's that close between them that the winner of a trilogy is not an accumulator I'd care to bet on.

 

People call him No1 Middleweight of all time, more like No1 Welterweight of all time, because that's basically his resume, Hagler actually beat middleweights, Hagler should be ranked above Monzon and would've beaten him as well

 

Monzon was
1lb lighter than Valdes in their 1st fight.
1lb lighter than Licata
1lb lighter than Bogs
1lb lighter than Benvenuti 2nd fight
Level weights with
Tonna
Bouttier 2nd fight
Moyer
Benvenuti 1st fight

Heavier than
Briscoe by1lb 2nd fight
Mundine by1lb
Bouttier by1lb 1st fight
Valdes by 1lbs 2nd fight
Napoles by7lbs
Griffith by 4lbs1st fight
Griffith by2lbs 2nd fight

Heights of the middles Monzon defended against
Valdes 5'9.5"
Tonna 5'9.5"
Licata5'10"
Mundine 5'10"
Bouttier 5'9.5"
Bogs 5'9"
Griffith 5'.7.5"
Benvenuti 5'11"
Briscoe 5'8"
Moyer 5'8"

Bogs went onto win the European Light heavyweight Title
Mundine to win the Lightheavy ,Cruiser and Heavyweight titles of Australia.

Hagler won his title from a former light middle, after drawing with him first time around.
Defended against Hearns a former welter weight
Duran, a former light weight
Mugabi a light middle
And lost his title to a former welter weight, Leonard.
Best do some research Mate!

 

Yeah, at the weigh on, he probably weighed like 15-20lbs more than them on fight night, he is naturally bigger than them

 

Same day weigh- ins! Oh Dear! lol

 

Monzon was as lean as a rake.

 

Apply that scoring method to Hagler's career and he'd have only had one loss (to Willie Monroe), a loss he avenged twice over by KO. His other losses, to Leonard and Watts, would have been draws.

 

You can't come in under 160lbs when you're nearly 6 foot otherwise! Objectivity here seems to be at a premium.

 

No one said any such thing. I said it was possible, in the 70-80 fights he had in Argentina we know almost nothing about, he may have looked bad or got a gift decision. Name any fighter who had 70-80 fights and didn't look bad or get a gift at some point.

Hagler's losses and draws have been repeatedly used against him in this debate. He was criticised for losing to Leonard. He was criticised for drawing with Antuofermo. Someone said Monzon would never have lost to Willie Monroe. Why shouldn't Monzon's numerous losses and draws be fair game also?

No agenda here. Simply a difference of opinion.

 

Actually, the Monzon-Fernandez fight was in September 1966, not January 1966.

And, according to a report written and published immediately after the fight, Monzon decked Fernandez, not the other way around.

So maybe Brusa was showing his age. I tend to believe a reporter who just watched the fight and sat ringside writing his story over an elderly man recalling a fight three decades later.

In fact, Monzon's knockdown of Fernandez was apparently the deciding factor in a fight that had 10 even rounds. And the reporter there said fans still didn't think Monzon deserved to win, because they didn't like his passive style.

https://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91139

Felipe Cambeiro dropped Monzon three times when he beat Monzon. That's been reported for decades.

Also, since you were the guy who said Monzon would never lose to Willie Monroe ...

MARVIN HAGLER NEVER LOSES to Felipe Cambiero.

Hagler never loses to Alberto Massi, either.

I wonder how badly Massi owned Monzon? Too bad we can't see Carlos lose to a complete novice who finished his career with a losing record.

If we could watch
* Hagler's best wins and Monzon's best wins ...
* Hagler's three losses and Monzon's three losses (and Carlos getting bounced around by no-names)...
* Hagler's two draws and Monzon's NINE draws (I wonder how many of those we'd think Carlos lost?)

I think Monzon's rep would take a HUGE hit.

But out of sight, out of mind, right? All we can do is watch Monzon win.

So, of course, nobody thinks he'd ever lose (even though he lost to some bad fighters).

Massi only fought for eight years, and finished with a 22-28-7 record, for God's sake. But Carlos never loses to Willie Monroe. (rolls eyes)

Got it.

 

I've never heard that Fernandez knocked him down. Felipe Cambreiro floored hiim 3 times when they fought.

 

Do you see your name in my post?

 

Why?

The record tells us he lost 3 times. The record tells us he drew 9 times. What would seeing these bouts do, to deliver damage to Monzon's reputation.

It would not change the record, which tells us that he never lost or drew another fight from mid-69 to mid-77. It would not change the result of his 15 World Championship Title fight victories. It would not change the fact that film is available of Monzon's Championship.