Why is Carlos Monzon ranked higher than Marvin Hagler?

To what degree do you think they should be held against him?

In what way do these "early struggles" blot a 31-0-0 streak, which included a 15-0-0 in World Title Fights?

In the first half of his career, he avenged all but one of his Losses and Draws (and that 'one' is because a rematch never happened). Of those he avenged - in most cases - he did so on multiple occasions; all but three of them with at least one Stoppage victory.

Of the three he didn't stop, in revenge, Briscoe was one (stopped only once in 96 bouts); Cambeiro was another (never stopped in 60 bouts); Selpa was another (Stopped only 6 times in 219 bouts).


Also, did you ever noticed how Monzon did most of his fighting away from home? That he didn’t pick up a Draw or a Loss in his native Santa Fe?

Monzon never lost or drew a National or Continental Title Fight either, going 6-0-0 (4KOs).


It's difficult to gauge how much of an impact these earlier results actually have.

 

I was unfamiliar with this guy before this thread but he sure hasn't done himself any favours here.Its been a succession of fantasy posts from him and surly retorts when he is clowned for making them.Ridiculous.

 

Then please produce these ringside reports that Briscoe deserved the win ,that might lend some credence to the claim yes?
I've never seen any credible ranking which includes Hearns as an ATG middleweight.I'd class him as an ATG Welter and would guess nearly everyone else who follows boxing to any serious extent would do the same. Duran was a great light weight and most/many would class him as such as welter,he was nowhere near a great middle .
Mugabi was a very good light middle but not a great one and a decent middle.
Who of Monzon's challengers beats Hearns ?
Valdez,Briscoe.Maybe Benvenuti,Griffith.

 

Then please produce these ringside reports that Briscoe deserved the win ,that might lend some credence to the claim yes?
I've never seen any credible ranking which includes Hearns as an ATG middleweight.I'd class him as an ATG Welter and would guess nearly everyone else who follows boxing to any serious extent would do the same. Duran was a great light weight and most/many would class him as such as welter,he was nowhere near a great middle .
Mugabi was a very good light middle but not a great one and a decent middle.
Who of Monzon's challengers beats Hearns ?
Valdez,Briscoe.Maybe Benvenuti,Griffith.
What did Tommy do at the weight to expect him to beat top middles?
The scoring in Argentina explains a lot when it comes to those contentious draws,but I agree not the losses.
Lets look at 2 of them.
Monzon, in his 9th fight lost to Aguilar,16-0-0.
In his 14th fight he lost to Cambeiro 38-8-4.
In his 9th fight Hagler beat Bob Harrington16-18-6.
His 14th Peachy Davis 11-5-0.
Is it possible Hagler might have struggled with those 2 Monzon opponents at that same stage of his career? Nice debating with someone without a blatant agenda who is mature enough to be civil.

 

Green guys lose to people they wouldn't when they're prime ALL THE TIME. And we can see quite a few of the more modern guys.

Do people think any worse of Rungvisai? Donaire? Farmer? How about Pacquiao? Badou Jack? Nietes? B-Hop?

You get the point? Would it affect how we view Arguello if we could see him lose as a bantamweight? Would it change how we view Canto or Armstrong if we could see there losses?

Seeing a super green Monzon lose to Cambeiro would do very little damage to his rep, since we already know he won the rematch and beat guys who beat Cambeiro.

 

Cambeiro had 50 fights under his belt to Monzon's13.
There is a real desperation in some of these anti - Monzon posts,sad.

 

Indeed.

Starts out with a moot point about Monzon's unseen Losses and Draws and that seeing them would have a negative impact on Monzon's overall standing.

Peaks with a big, sweeping statement, asserting that seeing them would actually deliver a "HUGE hit" to Monzon's reputation.

This huge hit would be a process of watching Monzon in a bad performance 'changing the way we think about him' (even if we don't know whether or not it was a bad performance).

But, when asked, pointblank, as to how seeing Monzon's losses and Draws would change his historical rating, no one is saying - just that it would have an impact (No surprise there).

Then, we get to "seeing [Monzon] get his head caved in" over a 40 year period will have a "HUGE impact" again.

Let's forget that the vision portrayed here seems entirely out of context for something we all know was a Points Loss, on record, involving a Boxer, who was never stopped in 99 bouts.

And - after all that, it's still a moot point.

 

Golovkin wrecks Monzon.

 

Vice versa.

 

Totally irrelevant,even if it were true.

 

Alberto Massi had two fights and beat Monzon by the 'ARGENTIAN WIDE MARGIN' ON ALL THREE CARDS. And Massi sucked.

And nobody rates Badou Jack the best fighter in the history of his division. People do rate Monzon the best, and a half a dozen guys in this thread can't even accept Monzon actually lost, because they never saw it. One guy in this thread posted in the Monzon-Hagler thread yesterday that Monzon WON 82 FIGHTS IN A ROW.

Clearly, seeing Monzon lose (because he did) would open a few eyes.

I don't care if some people rate Monzon higher. I don't.

But anyone arguing that SEEING SOMEONE LOSE doesn't have an impact is clueless. And they've clearly spent ZERO time on this board, because that's all people talk about.

We see that every day on this board. People will argue against someone because THEY (the poster) didn't agree with the verdict when they saw the fight.

Of course, seeing someone lose has an impact. Of course seeing them lose over and over and over has an impact. Of course seeing fights where they were awarded draws or wins and you don't agree with those verdicts has an impact.

Seeing a fight for yourself matters in how you view fighters. And if you don't see their DOZEN losses/draws, and only their wins, you don't get the full picture.

And there are a LOT of people on this board who clearly don't have the full picture.

Monzon never won 82 fights in a row. Monzon got dropped three times in losing a fight. He's not some mythical fighter. He's not unbeatable. He lost to bums that someone like Hagler NEVER lost to.

I'm done with this thread. I've said my peace.

Happy Fourth of July weekend to my fellow Yanks!

 

You've missed the point (unsurprisingly).

Monzon whilst green was not a tenth of the fighter he would be when he was prime. He also beat all three of these men who beat him. Whether or not he lost to them may as well be irrelevant, as a version of Monzon who resembled anything close to his prime beats them with ease. If you're disputing this you may as well log out and follow a different sport.

Oh, and before you try the 'Massi was even greener' card, please try and realise that fighters age differently. Massi at 2-0 was better than Monzon was at 16-2. Monzon at 36-3-6 was much better than Massi was at 16-10-3.

And BTW, I never said anyone did mention Jack as the best SMW ever. No, my point was that they rated Jack as one of the best at that time (time where losses are more scrutinized than ever). Nobody minded the loss.

 

Massi beat Monzon in Massi's hometown of Cordoba so it was obviously a home town decision.lol
Two years later Monzon stopped the 27 fight Massi.
Some people are really pathetic in their agenda driven crusades.

 

What percentage of a fighter was Alberto Massi after two fights when Massi beat Monzon?

Massi finished with 57 pro fights (and only won 22). Massi beat Monzon in Alberto's third fight. Monzon had close to 20 fights at the time.

That is AN INCREDIBLY BAD LOSS for a guy who supposed to be the best ever in a division ... especially under this Argentinian system where you have to win clearly on all three cards to avoid a draw.

How bad did Monzon have to look in that fight to lose to Alberto Massi BY A WIDE MARGIN on ALL three cards?

I know he got better.

But you're the one who is missing the point. I think the guys who believe Monzon won 82 fights in a row might want to check that out.

Seeing guys CONVINCINGLY lose to bums seems to take the shine off.

Have a good weekend.

 

Why Dubble, what is your point? Is your point that Massi was a better fighter? Is your point that a 22 year old Monzon's loss to Massi means that he's not an ATG? Is your point that no-one sane should rate Monzon #1 because a young Monzon lost to a 2-0 Massi?

No? Why? Coz that'd be ridiculous. This loss is not 'an incredibly bad loss', because Monzon wasn't prime. No loss that didn't occur in someone's prime can be described as 'incredibly bad'.

Monzon had 15 title defences which you can look into for analysis. Reaching to his early losses for some kind of criticism is just that. Reaching.

And BTW I'm not missing any point. I know what point you're trying to make. That point is wrong.