Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

So Moore stated that Frazier was a "super Marciano" because he was mad at Ali? Right. Why not just say Frazier or Marciano were better than Ali?

On the subject of Moore, he said quite a few things in relation to Marciano that you probably wouldn't agree with. He said Curtis Sheppard hit him harder than Marciano. He said Ezzard Charles was past his prime when he fought Marciano and picked a prime Charles to beat Rocky. Moore also maintained throughout his life that the referee in the Marciano fight robbed him of the chance of a KO. You can't cherrypick!

 

He also said Durelle hit harder than Marciano and that Spinks is better than Charles just because he was jelaous of them!They won and Moore didn't like that!
Charles was for sure not past prime because he was just one year older than Rocky ans he came after Satterfield win!
He was jelaous because Marciano beat Charles easier!
Moore in hist part of carrer was a bit cocky when he was fighting but latter always stated that Marciano was strongest he ever met and that he eas better than Frazier!
Foreman also told that Moore mentioned Marciano as tougher than Frazier!
Moore stated that ref was paid by Mob and that there was long count but Marciano didn't evem get a count he just continue!

 

This is why it's pretty daft to rely on the words of Archie Moore. He said a lot of things, some of them a bit odd, and frequently contradicted himself.

 

Charles had a shed load of mileage on his clock. Marciano was down for a count of 4 ,you can hear it on the footage!

 

Charles hadn't nothing but peak prime like he was at that time!
Had load?He came after wins over Louis,Moore and Satterfield while he was only 1 year older than Rocky!
He came from count 2 not 4 and judge was amazed how wuick he got up!

 

1-if you're talking about Joe Louis he was gunshy and relying on his jab and ring IQ. His power, aggression, and blistering combinations were gone. You can't compare him to a prime Liston who is far tougher and more well rounded than that version of Louis.

2-that was a green version of Liston, who claims he got caught with his mouth open while laughing at Marshall.

3-He quit out of frustration due to the clash of styles. He hated fast guys that evaded him like Machen and Ali. When a guy brought the fight to him, he was never shy about getting his hands dirty in a close quarters duel (folley, Williams, etc).

4-kind of a silly point to bring up. If a cut is bad enough anything can happen. In fact the ref of the 2nd Charles/marciano fight warned him that he was on the verge of stopping it. Vitali, Frazier, Patterson, were stopped on cuts/swelling.

5-yes he beat every opponent. Is it untrue that he fought in a relatively weak era and that his best opponents were all in their 30's and heavily shopworn? Floyd Mayweather retired undefeated and several people (myself included) see him losing to Hearns and Robinson at 147. This is a fairly irrelevant point.

6-Ted Lowry, who was shorter than Liston and didnt have 20% of his power and skill, landed many punches on Rocky in a very competitive bout, what is your point?

7-this is also a very irrelevant question. It took a long time for people to start respecting Wladmir Klitschko on top 10 lists but one would look fairly foolish favoring Gene Tunney over him (Tunney frequently made published top 10 lists before the internet/YouTube era). People favor Liston because of the major clash of styles and physical dimensions.

8-which 2 men? Do you mean when Ali threw a "phantom punch" and Liston flopped around like an NBA player in the most controversial and mysterious fight in boxing history, or are you referring to when Liston was pushing 40 (or past 40 depending on which age theory you believe) and was addicted to alcohol, screwing hookers, a possible heroin addiction, and had no heart in boxing?

Was James Toney a harder puncher than Lennox Lewis when he stopped Holyfield?

 

Dude those are all reasonable arguments.
But you & your ego avoided my point entirely.

Which is that you said, falsely, that Marciano did everything better!
You even ostentatiously avoided the bigger differences I mentioned: Frazier was both faster overall & somewhat more accurate.

Again, even if you can make a good case, your general credibility & that of your specific argument is severely undermined *if* you make biased, innacurate statements-& then you ignore repeated objections to them.

I have no problemo with anyone arguing Marciano was better. He may well have been, although I think Frazier was likely slightly better, & you cherry-picked the evidence & testimonials.

I will ask you for a final time to acknowledge that you were *wrong* to say that Rocky did everything better.
And that it is not good to ignore it when someone points this fact out to you.
Also if anything it *damages* your case, because it betrays irrationality & bias.

You big enough to do that man?

 

Charles had 96 fights going into the 1st Marciano bout and had won 2 of his last 4,
MARCIANO WAS DOWN FOR A COUNT OF 4 AS HEARD ON THE FILM AND WRITTEN INTHE RINGSIDE REPORT HERE..YOU CAN DENY IT ALL YOU WANT BUT ITS A SIMPLE FACT
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=bP4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1691,2640626&hl=en

 

I’m asking did Marciano fight a number one rated fighter, who was 8-0 in 11 months, one inch taller and the same weight as Sonny Liston? If you think the answer is No then you would be incorrect. Joe Louis was no longer a phenomenal champion, but he was still a worthy elite fighter based on his recent record and size.

And yet it is still true that Liston lost to a man who was lighter than Marciano. There is no evidence Sonny was laughing by the way.

when was that okay?

never as defending champion. To this day, in the whole history of boxing, a challenger has never won the heavyweight title on a cut. Historically cuts never determine a result in favour of the challenger when it comes to the heavyweight title. It never happens.

yes that is untrue. Extensive study of film of the heavyweight contenders prove there was a lot of talent in the heavyweight division during the Marciano era. Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Bob Satterfeild, Nino Valdes, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Harold Johnson are all excellent fighters on film.

That is indeed true. Ted Lowry likely made a fool of Marciano when he was on the way up because Tiger Ted was a Vastly experienced cagey fighter who came to fight. It didn’t change the fact that even the most diminutive And inadequate opponent served up to Liston (when he was the leading contender) was able to land some punches on Sonny. And if He could, so could Rocky. Everyone who says Liston beats Marciano in a mismatch never seem to think Rocky can even land a punch on Sonny. He would! And if Rocky can hit somebody he has a chance against anyone.

Tunney actually makes Teddy Atlas’s top ten now. The internet generation are free to decide there is a clash of styles between Marciano and Liston and that the physical dimensions are insurmountable...but that was never the case among experts who saw both Liston and Marciano before the internet generation. Don’t you think this might be a valid point?

no James Toney didn’t hit as hard as Lennox Lewis...and that doesn’t explain away why Toney was able to stop Lewis and Holyfield couldn’t. Holyfield was stopped by Toney because james was able to land more unanswered blows upon Holyfield than Lewis was able to. Toney could fight Holyfield at his distance where as Lewis, a bigger guy, was punching down against Evander and couldn’t quite utilise his power quite as effectively as he might have done had they been the same size.

I don’t think Liston would be able to best use his power against Marciano either because he is also punching down and struggling to find the correct distance to nail Marciano cleanly. he might become frustrated once the fight becomes mauling and rough inside.

 

I sometimes like to troll a troll with facts if you like. You will notice I kept it very short and light on investment.

 

Liston KO 7

I Iike Rocky alot. More than most people I might even say. I do not like this matchup at all for him. Liston was too mean too big, strong and long. He'd find Rockys chin early

 

He fought a guy who was of a similar height but not half the fighter a prime sonny Liston was. I believe we've had this conversation before. Stop comparing a shopworn old Louis to a prime Liston. Or don't, keep making the comparison so I can laugh at it and ignore it.

Deontay Wilder won a wide UD over the 6'2 Bermane Stiverne who was coming off his best win and a world champion. He later brutally KO'd him in 1 round. I suppose by your logic this gives us some sort of insight about how Wilder would fair against Louis.

"Liston lost his eighth fight on a split decision when the wisecracking Marty Marshall made him laugh and, catching Sonny with his mouth open, broke his jaw. Liston avenged his defeat five months later, knocking Marshall down four times en route to a sixth round kayo win."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/liston_cf.html

When did I say this was okay? You said that Liston quit against a guy who "didn't hit as hard as Marciano" to imply if he faced another guy who hit harder that he would quit. Folley Patterson and especially Williams all likely hit harder than Ali so this is a pretty stupid argument to make.

You also ignored my point that it was frustration due to the styles. Liston was never afraid to get his hands dirty in a brawl with a guy like Marciano. When asked about a fight with Frazier, he said it would be like "shooting fish in a barrel"--meaning he isn't at all bothered with an aggressive short come forward volume puncher/slugger.

Mike Tyson never scored a 12th round KO. Does that mean it would never happen? Only a fool would make such a bet given his power and killer instinct.

Wether the ref stops a fight on a cut or not doesn't change the fact that blood is getting in a fighter's eye, distracting him, and making him weaker and more vulnerable.

Stop cherry picking the parts of my post you want to respond to.

Marciano's best opponents were all over 30 with several dozen fights and over a decade's worth of fighting in mileage. That is a fact.

It's also observable--"on film"--that they weren't as sharp and as explosive as they were when they were younger. Now are you going to shift the goal posts and bring up Louis "win streak", or pretend like Moore and Charles hadn't lost a step or that they were fighting in their best weight class? Anytime a light heavyweight is able to move up and grab the title it points to a weak era (Tunney, Spinks, Jones, Byrd, etc). Of course you'll never admit this so let me ask you this:

-was the older, inactive Jack Dempsey who was hanging out with high society a "dangerous champion" in a "strong era" when Tunney dethroned him?

-how about the vacancy left by Louis in the post WW2 era when many boxers' careers were derailed by the war and much of the young talent had gone off to battle or had to fight in exhibitions?

-was a chubby 36 year old Larry Holmes a dangerous champion in a Golden era when Spinks outpointed him?

-how about Jones over the cautious jab and grab John Ruiz? Was that a strong era for heavyweight boxing?

I can only speak for myself. I never said Rocky would "never land anything" on Liston.

Marshall was more experienced than Liston yet you hold that against him. You bring up Marshall being 20 lbs lighter yet you ignore the dwarf sized opponents and ex light heavyweights on Marciano and Louis' resume.

Be consistent.

Liston was far better than Lowry and Marciano was far better than Marshall, so forming an argument around these performances is fool hardy. I only brought up Lowry because you brought up a fight when Liston was an 8 fight novice as if that had bearing on a prime vs prime scenario.

No it's invalid because someone ranked 15 on a top 50 list can have a stylistic advantage over a guy ranked 3. Those are purely opinion based and they often differ drastically between different people.

Ok so styles and skill have a lot to do with why fighter A had more success and stopped fighter B than fighter C did. Age is also a big factor. Holyfield was heavily shopworn against Toney and Liston was heavily shopworn against Martin.

When you are bringing up the end of Liston's career as a shot fighter and the near beginning when he was a novice to make you're arguments you are showing how incredibly biased you are. If I brought up Dempsey's round 1 ko loss or struggling with Willie meehan you'd be ready to call the cops.

Another stupid post. Patterson was shorter and fought out of a crouch against Liston with his peak a boo style and he had no trouble punching down. I have boxed before and I don't know where you're getting this idea that you can't get any good leverage punching at a shorter fighter coming at you. Those were always the easiest for me and if it was easy for me, it would be a cake walk for Liston. Foreman feasted on guys coming to him and brutalized them with his uppercut. Same thing for Lennox. Hearns had to punch down to fight Duran and brutally KO'd him. Where are you even getting this idea from?

 

Rocky had heart. Liston was a bit light on the left side.

 

Oh, I don't approve of that kind of behaviour at all, JohnThomas1. Shame on you.