Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

of course you can get leverage punching down but it depends more upon the distance you can create, how close the opponent is to you. Marciano really crowded his opponents. And he bent illegally low at times. You are not going to have room enough against that kind of fighter to really tee off. It’s how Arturo Godoy was able to frustrate Joe Louis first time. Charley Goldman was behind that performance too.

it wasn’t so much that I was bringing up the beginning part or end of Sonnys career, more that I was asking the question. Did a smaller man break Sonnys jaw? Did a lighter puncher knock him out? Actually Sonny was decked as world champion by Ali, so that’s at the good part of his career anyway.

precisely. It is my opinion Marciano would be a difficult opponent for Sonny Liston based upon the points I raised. Nothing wrong in that. You ageee that Liston never beat anybody who Marciano wouldn’t also beat.

no I wasn’t using Marshall for a prime vs prime example. I was asking was it true that a fighter that size, so much smaller than Liston, troubled him. It was really a yes-or no thing. And the answer is yes.

Sonny was over 30.

certainly true of Joe Louis albeit that he was still functional elite fighter but not true of Walcott, Charles or Moore. Those guys were producing highlight reel knockouts leading up to facing Marciano. Moore and Walcott in particular produced career best wins. Film bares this out.

Dempsey still knocked out a prime Jack Sharkey between the fights he had with Gene Tunney so I don’t understand where the inactivity or example of a weak era can really be made here.

 

You've been corrected on Louis height by me several times,once and for all he was six feet one and a half inches ,he was also a one handed fighter by the time he fought Marciano.Loius was not the number 1 Ring ranked contender and your own source the NBA ranks him at no2.
You lose no more power punching down than you do punching up.
Liston had no problems with swarmers
He hit harder than Marciano, was a better boxer than Marciano,and was stronger than Marciano.At range he wins with the jab, in close he wins with the uppercut and those clubbing hooks.He is superior to Marciano in every way.
This constant trumpeting of a green Liston getting his jaw broke and losing a split dec is getting so tiresome.What happened in the 2 rematches?
Liston walked through the punches of Williams,Valdes,DeJohn.
He wasnt floored by any 40 years old light heavyweight.
Throw out the Ali fights which nobody believes were kosher and who stopped or floored him Martin ,[who hit hard enough to kill Sonny Banks,] when Liston was an old man.
How about we speculate how Marciano would do against Martin in the same circumstances?
Holyfield was beaten by Toney because he was 41 years old.
The 50s heavyweights indictated their lack of depth by the fact that former champions and recycled ex light heavies past their prime were prominently ranked ,it was a by product result of the War. Walcott had first challenged for the title 5 years earlier, and he was in his late 30's then,the fact that he retired immediately after the Marciano fights tells us what he had left.

 

You are one of very very few who can hold back tho!!!

 

Do you remember the Agramante fight? Within that period Louis decked him with a right hand. True or not true?

The NBA confirmed two logical contenders to the title and Louis was one of them. Logical. If there are two logical, That means equal standing.

yes, depending on how stationary the target is and how much room you have to deliver the blow you don’t lose power punching down than punching up. Problem is Marciano isn’t tied to a chair or frozen with fear.

like Albert Westphall?

At range Marciano closes the gap because He bends low, Sonny aims low and Rocky hits him as he comes up. Worked a treat on Joe Louis who was harder to hit than Liston was.

In close he is trading with Marciano. Sonny is getting hit inside.

Michael Moorer, Evander Holyfield, Chris Bryd, Roy Jones, Michael Spinks anyone?

if you are saying the Marciano fights ruined him I agree. And that takes nothing from the point that Walcott produced the best performances of his career in the two fights joe had leading into the fight with Rocky.

 

Agramonte went the distance twice with Louis do you think he would do that with the pre war Brown Bomber?
Walcott had floored Agramonte 4 times stopping him in7 rounds, a year prior to him twice going the distance with Louis, what does that tell you?

If we didn't believe our own eyes watching Louis on film, his own quotes tell us his right hand was a thing of the past,"my right hand dont leave me no more","I saw the openings but I was too slow to get there","a few years earlier I'd have stopped Charles in about seven rounds", "my last good fight was against Mauriello I still had my power" .
The NBA named Louis as number 2.This is from your own post!

I'm saying Walcott was 38 years old, even the newsmen called him Old Man River! The two fight previous to the Marciano fights were not his best performances one of them was described as a snore bore. His fights with Schkor,& Louis were better.
Marciano bends low to his right,straight into Sonny's left hook, it wouldn't be Walcott or Moore flooring him, it would be a modern sized heavyweight who hit like few men can.
All of Liston's ko victims were tied to chairs frozen with fear?
Would that be like Walcott in the second Marciano fight?
Old Louis wasn't harder to hit than prime Sonny.
You're trying to lay bricks without cement,and it's convincing no one.

 

Why do you refer to the 38 year old Moore as the 40 year old light HW? We’ve been over his record which is better then 90 percent of the HWs in the hall of fame. He also had plenty of power. He also didn’t bring up Holyfield as an age thing he brought it up because he had fought much bigger men before and AFTER and wasn’t knocked out. That being said I agree with a lot of your points. Liston held a lot of advantages. I don’t think he wins the inside game at all though. Truth is I’m not sure if Liston could keep Rocky honest. Whoever wanted it more thag night would prob win.

 

Because his Mother said he was 2 years older than he claimed.

 

"Beautiful!"...

 

"Brilliant"....

 

That was never the question and you know it! Louis was still a functional, active elite fighter. He knocked down Agramante with a right hand yes or no?

Walcott beat Charles twice in a row. The best two results on his record. A highlight reel knockout.

of course they were not. I was just demonstrating that being able to hit hard against one level of fighter with a totally different style and totally Different level of focus and drive doesn’t automatically translate.

Walcott might not have wanted to be there the second time. I accept that. Floyd was like that both times for Sonny. He simply could not perform. Wasn’t his fault. But Patterson was not Patterson in those fights..and most people would agree Sonny had his number. and Unfortunately, even Floyd knew it. That’s hardly the best state of mind to be in against an opponent.

I think he was. Liston knocked people out with style. He blew them away. But he always took punches doing it. And he marked up a fair bit too. He had his eye closed, lips cut, jaw broke, nose broke, cheek cut. Sonny was not hard to hit.

I am answering all your questions, if you are not convinced of my answers then you can’t disagree with them either.

 

Who won the two Louis v Godoy fights?

 

His mother was barely in his life and probably wasn’t a good source lol as crazy as that sounds. His old manager had said he saw his birth certificate because he needed it to get him to Australia and said he was 38 for Marciano. Quoted in the age less warrior

 

Sonny wasnt hard to hit,but Liston was?
How many times was Liston down?
How many times Louis?
Marciano was cut against
Schkor
Louis
Walcott
Charles
Moore
Simmons

 

It Wasn’t Sonny Liston.

 

Moore used the age thing as a gimmick to sell himself and keep people talking. He knew how old he was. You can take it up w his manager who claimed to have seen it getting Archie his passport for the Australia tour...I’d assume Archie saw him because I think he lives w him while on that tour.