Joe Gans vs Henry Armstrong

Armstrong overrated? What are you smoking?

 

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Zivic's win over Burley was a robbery and Burley in the rematch beat Zivic senseless

Armstrong was 3 years detached from his first title win and only 31 when he lost to Zivic. He would later beat Zivic

I know people like to explain away losses with the 'past prime' argument

 

Armstrong had over 130 fights at that point. Just because he still had good wins after the loss doesn't mean that he was in his prime.

I mean, Armstrong had decent wins after SRR fight too - would you say that Henry was in his prime against SRR?

 

You can definitely find reports agreeing with the decision. It's not like any of us have seen it to be able to judge

 

Pittsburgh Post-Gazaette- 1938 Mar 22
Colored Lad Outclased By Veterean Foe
Fritzie's Experience Proves Too Much For Opponent; Charley Weakens in Later Rounds

The Pittsburgh Press- 1938 Mar 22
BURLEY BEATS ZIVIC--JUDGES SAY 'NO'

Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph- 1938 Mar 22
Both Judges voted for Zivic and Referee Freddie Mastrean for Burley. Some of the fans, too, professed to think Burley had won, but he didn't.

 

I read this post again and I have to say - which fights proved that Gans didn't do well vs skilled swarmers?

 

Armstrong didn't face Burley, Williams or Cocoa Kid. That's an undeniable fact.

However only Cocoa Kid was a top contender at WW for a significant time. The other two had much more success at MW.

Cocoa Kid was the number 1 contender when Armstrong signed to fight Zivic, but he got sparked by Leto soon after so even that fight hasn't exactly been protracted.

Armstrong was only champ for 2 years. If in that time he'd have only faced Ross, Garciax2 (once for the MW championship) Ambers x 2 and Jenkins, people would be saying he only ever fought the best opposition possible.

The fact he has another 20 or so fights in that time absolutely does not detract from what he achieved and who he beat.

I mean how could it?

It would be interesting to see if this poster also holds it against Jones for never fight Michalczewski or Mayweather for never fighting Margarito or Whitaker for not facing Tito in his prime.

I would have to suspect the answer is no.

 

Nailing down Armstrongs prime is difficult.

I think its fair to say that the Zivic losses are rightly held against him, but he dealt with that by beating him in the trilogy fight.

 

I can't find much info on Ambers Vs Cocoa Kid. Anyone got much info on it?

 

Sure.

McGovern beats Gans ( Early KO on Film ), Langford beat Gans ( Off film ) Joe Walcott ( Draw not on film. Walcott age 31 past his best, Gans 29 had more good years left. )

Three skilled swarmers, Gans 0-2-1. I thin this is proof enough.

While I would not call Nelson a skilled swarmer, his pressure got an older Gans. Gans was the type if you give him space, his skills shine, but when pressured, he's not the same guy. He was the classic boxer-puncher bothered by pressure.

I don't know a lot about Frank Erne, outside of being good for the time with a slower more deliberate strategy to win. He did beat Gans via TKO 1n 1900. Gans tried to opt-out of the fight in round nine, claiming a head but that nobody saw.

IMO Gans is an interesting skilled guy. Maybe not the toughest by the standards of other great lightweights.