Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

This is what sticks in my mind (get it, sticks? jab? BWA!...


sorry, I can be very corny).

 

How about arguing against what people actually said instead of creating a straw man based on "insinuations"? NOBODY is saying that the most likely scenario is that Marciano fails to land a single glove on Liston and gets demolished with 1 or 2 hits so stop artificially creating drama and addressing an argument nobody made! NOBODY IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD SAID THAT MARCIANO WOULD DO WORSE THAN WESTPHALL OR EVEN PATTERSON FOR THAT MATTER.

-Qawi landed dozens of shots on foreman, that fight was a 1 sided domination.

-Cooper landed dozens of vicious shots on Holyfield, the fight ended in a 1 sided beat down.

-Hide landed dozens of shots on Bowe, it was a fairly 1 sided beat down.

Also crucially, Marciano landed dozens of shots on Charles and Lowry and couldn't put then away. Both went the distance. Lastarza went the distance. Don Cokkel lasted several rounds.

So no it isn't far fetched to suggest Liston could eat a few dozen shuts and still manage to annihilate Marciano given that he had a better chin and was a better fighter than Lastarza, Cokkel, Lowry, etc. This is a very flawed argument.

I'm actually glad you brought this up. 2 weight world champ Spinks never really showed up against tyson and got blasted out in 90 seconds. Is He a worse fighter than journeyman James Tillis who went the distance?

You can say spinks and Patterson didn't show up, Dominick brezeale trained hard and had a vendetta against wilder, that didn't stop him from getting KO'd in 1 round. Dillian Whyte was motivated, in shape, and had beef with Joshua, didn't stop him from getting KO'd. Roberto Duran was motivated and had heart and was an elite fighter with multiple championships, he still got utterly crushed by Hearns in 2 rounds. Liam Smith showed tons of guts and heart against Canelo and still got brutally stopped and outclassed. Jimmy Ellis trained hard and showed tons of heart against Shavers and still got brutally KO'd (he was actually VERY angry with Shavers and had something to prove).

Being an "elite fighter" and having "heart" is not a valid argument to claim it's "illogical" for Liston to brutally stop Marciano early.

It isn't a cliche at all. Ali got nailed by hooks multiple times in multiple fights against banks, Cooper, Frazier, Norton etc. It isn't a coincidence that the only times Ali was dropped was from left hooks. That is a weakness.

I am simply applying YOUR logic. If Liston getting hit by 4 measly powder puff right hands (that did no damage) is evidence that Marciano could find an opening and nail Liston, then I can use the NUMEROUS examples of Ali getting nailed and DROPPED by left hooks to make the case Bert Cooper or Morrison or Tua could drop or stop Ali. There is no leap in logic or inconsistency here.

 

That’s fine if Sonny has a better chin than Rocky...only I don’t think he did. I can’t see Ali knocking Rocky down the way Liston went over in Maine..and I can’t see Rocky wobble like Ali made Sonny wobble in Miami. You cannot say it isn’t valid that Rocky could deck Sonny. He’s an all time great puncher with an enormous workrate.

he was worse against Tyson that’s for sure.

not that alone no. But there are many other points. Not having been knocked out before is one. Being a terrific puncher at elite level with both hands is another. Being unpredictable and awkward is another..there are at least as many reasons for Rocky to win as there are for Sonny to win.

I am glad you brought this up actually because this example only works if Bert Cooper or Tommy Morrison were ATG fighters. I think it would be valid if Tommy Morrison or Bert Cooper were ATG fighters who dominated an era actually, it would certainly be harder to rule out if they had. Instead we can look at the kinds of guys they lost to and quickly realise Ali was another level. Whereas with Marciano you can’t do that. You can’t say he didn’t beat great fighters. You can’t say he didn’t knock guys flat with the right hand at championship level. You can’t even say he lost a fight by knockout for one thing so it becomes harder to visualise. We have highlight reels of Morrison and Cooper being pounded to oblivion. So that doesn’t work.

 

He sure did..."Suzie Q"

 

Never said Rocky dropping Liston is impossible or invalid, but the 2nd Ali vs Liston fight is invalid for obvious reasons.

So You admit that just because fighter A is superior to fighter B, that doesn't mean fighter A will automatically fair better against fighter C. "Levels" and "heart" are not a valid argument for claiming an elite fighter getting stopped early is an invalid claim.

List those reasons you think Rocky is equally likely to beat Liston.

Oliver McCall was never knocked out but if Wilder or Shavers teed off on him he'd probably get knocked out.

We've already been over this. Banks and Cooper were far from ATG fighters and they dropped Ali and had him badly hurt. They're about on the same level as Bert and lower than Morrison. Therefore there is nothing illogical in claiming Morrison or Bert could potentially stop Ali. Either accept this or admit your logic is flawed.

 

Stop feeding that Troll, if he gets any fatter he’s going to become Jarrell Miller.

 

I’m not trolling anyone. I’m answering questions. All you guys think that somebody who thinks different to you is a troll. Makes no sense. Disagree with my points, tell me where you think I am wrong. That’s fine. Ask a question I’ll answer it.

 

It’s invalid depending on your opinion. It’s not factually invalid is it? Liston was legitimately dropped by Ali. Nobody believes it was a “knock-out” because there was no official count from the referee. But it was a legitimate flash “knockdown” at worse.

we both agree that Spinks and Floyd left their fight in the locker room. That was the issue. But to answer your question, and I am happy to answer them, fighter A can be beaten by both fighter B and fighter C if he leaves the fight in the locker room.

you don’t think I’ve already done that?

depends if he is tied to a chair or not. I think it’s safe to say McCall doesn’t get knocked out by anyone. He fought enough great fighters to prove that.

I accept it is possible Morrison or Bert can drop Ali. I don’t think they can knock him out. Do you think it’s possible Marciano can drop Liston? Ali did.

 

Idk why you get **** here lol. If you’re off half an inch there’s a lynch mob ready to get u. Always respectful. Some people just can’t articulate their points I guess or why they feel a way so they must attack off topic I suppose.

 

Here's your chance to articulate why Marciano would beat Liston
1.Is he a better boxer?
2.A better puncher?
3.Better defence?
4.Bigger?
5.Stronger?
6.Better chin?
Or which other qualities is he superior in?

 

Yup. Seems that way. If they can’t disagree the guns come out.

 

Heart.
Resume/ Legacy
Chin.
Coaching.

 

Not a better boxer (better style maybe?)
Listons the slightly better puncher...slightly
Marcianos defense is far and away better we have the stats to back it up if you like.
Bigger? Does that predetermine winners in boxing?
Strength prob about equal. Or close enough. Many have called Marciano the strongest opponent they’ve faced.
Better chin? Have to award Marciano the slightly better chin.
All in all I think they’re pretty even (Liston is one of two fighters I think champs who threw more punches a round then Marciano) As far as opposition they’ve faced, skill, power, etc. Marciano had problems with fast clever fighters. Liston was neither fast nor clever really. I think they slug it out in the middle of the ring till someone falls.

 

Good post.

 

Yeah when you are

-using Westphal vs Liston (which ended in a brutal 1st round KO) to support your arguments AGAINST Liston

-comparing an old shopworn gunshy Joe Louis to a prime Liston.

-bringing up Ali vs Liston 2 as evidence of Liston's vulnerability.

-marty Marshall, a fight that happened when Liston was an 8 fight novice.

...And typing all that with a straight face tells me you are either insane, biased, or a troll (or all of the above).