Old fat George shoved HW Evander all over the place when they fought and the Holyfield weighing a whopping 7 pounds more walked Tyson back every single time they clinched. Holyfield openly admits Foreman was the physically strongest guy he fought and the only guy he couldn’t physically move. And he fought giants like Bowe, Lewis, Rahman and Valuev. And George would no doubt have been even stronger in his muscled up 70’s prime. Foreman had a big edge in strength over Holyfield when they actually fought and would have an even bigger one over Tyson in his physical prime.
Yeah but if they are so superior then you should be able to say without reservation that all of the guys Frazier beat would beat all of the guys that Tyson beat. But you cannot realistically say that. Berbick may very well have beaten Bonavena. We can discuss who may have won but it's not a foregone conclusion. Same with say Chuvalo vs Tony Tucker or Quarry vs Thomas or Carl Williams. All are fights that could go either way. You cannot realistically say that "Carl Williams would have zero chance at beating Quarry" on the contrary, he'd have a very decent chance. Any guy who Tyson beat could potentially beat any of Frazier's guys.
Great post! I think Tyson loses to Liston for similar reasons except Liston had a much better defense than Foreman, could fight backing up unlike Foreman, was more disciplined, had better boxing skills, and most importantly was more intimidating as you alluded to would be a problem for Mike..
The Holyfield of the Tyson fight was noticeably bigger and stronger than the Holyfield of the Foreman fight. And I thought we were talking about young Foreman not old Foreman?
I think old Foreman was physically stronger than his younger, smaller self. 42 isn't old in the grand scheme of things and it is not uncommon for a healthy, early forties man to be physically stronger than he was 20 years prior. If you look at strength sports, you'll notice that a lot of top performers are in their mid 30s to early 40s, old Foreman would have been perfect for a powerlifting or strong man contest and likely would have done better than young Foreman would have, especially if we're talking 38-43 year old Foreman. Reflexes and speed may be the first things to go, but physical strength hangs around and a lot of times increases to a certain age. That's where the term "old man strength" comes from. It's why an 18 year old who thinks he's strong gets easily manhandled by his 36 year old uncle. Personally, I think older Foreman was superior in terms of brute physical strength than his 70s counterpart.
I don't think Tyson being pushed back means Holyfield is stronger. Tyson does not base his fighting on strength. His style was based on precision punching and head movement. A guy having the strength to push the other one back does not need signify he's stronger if the other isn't really offering resistance.
We could argue forever, I just think Frazier's opposition was a shade better overall, and he did have the single best win by defeating Ali which is A hundred Miles better than whoever you want to consider Tyson's best win. If you want to pretend Frazier never beat Ali then I give up you win
Not what I meant. I meant Tyson doesn't fight the shoves or pushes. It's not his style. He usually rested in clinches too. He wasn't a mauler. Not resistance as in he wasn't competition. Foreman can push him all he wants, it doesn't mean he's going to win.
He did beat Ali but outside of that win, I don't think he beat better opposition than Tyson did. I think the 70s contenders are very overrated. They would have done about the same in any era after that. For example, Lyle would have did about the same that Berbick did in the 80s. Be a top contender and pick up a belt and win some and lose some.
Nothing wrong with the 70s Era it destroys the Era we have at the moment. Heres some examples. 1. Ali 2. Foreman 3. Frazier 4. Holmes 5. Quarry 6. Norton 7. Young 8. Lyle 9. Ellis 10. Shavers
Yes at 250 Foreman was stronger and probably even harder to move. Not that he was ever easy to back up.
Don't know what you are getting at. Shoving someone is hardly the equivalent of walking them down. That's how you get someone to fight backwards. Shoving just creates temporary space. Evander sure as hell didn't force Mike back. He didn't win cause he could push Mike. I don't recall Mike ever being walked down. He just got outpunched. He got knocked out every time he lost because his style was do or die, he went forward all the time.
